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Kurt Vonnegut's Rules for Writing Fiction

Ireth

Myth Weaver
I think the problem I have with concealment comes when a plot relies on Big Secrets to work. If revealing the secret(s) means the central conflict would fizzle out and the characters would get along with each other, I often come away thinking the characters are nitwits. It's similar to doing a twist ending. When it works, it's fine; otherwise it can feel contrived. It should feel natural and not like the author is pulling the strings, even though she is. ;)

That makes me think long and hard about my Fae duology; the whole plot of the second book hinges on the identity of one central character being concealed until the climax. Granted, she has very good reason to hide her identity, as the characters she interacts with are essentially unpaid bounty hunters, ordered against their own wills to bring her before the Kings of Faerie on pain of imprisonment or torture if they should fail or try to disobey the command. All of them consider her (her real self, not the persona she takes on to hide) to be their friend, but she doesn't trust them not to hand her over the moment she reveals herself, and they have a hard time even trying to get the point across that no, they do not actually intend to hand over their target to the Kings -- mainly because said Kings are tracking their every move, and whatever they say may be overheard.
 
That makes me think long and hard about my Fae duology; the whole plot of the second book hinges on the identity of one central character being concealed until the climax. Granted, she has very good reason to hide her identity, as the characters she interacts with are essentially unpaid bounty hunters, ordered against their own wills to bring her before the Kings of Faerie on pain of imprisonment or torture if they should fail or try to disobey the command. All of them consider her (her real self, not the persona she takes on to hide) to be their friend, but she doesn't trust them not to hand her over the moment she reveals herself, and they have a hard time even trying to get the point across that no, they do not actually intend to hand over their target to the Kings -- mainly because said Kings are tracking their every move, and whatever they say may be overheard.

Characters hiding things from each other is not the same as the author hiding things from the reader. One is natural and the other one feels artificial.
 

Mindfire

Istar
I loathe reading stories like this! And I hate when it occurs in otherwise great stories!

Like Wheel of Time! Will the guys and girls just trust each other and talk to each other for once?! F-R-U-S-T-R-A-T-I-N-G

What's this about Wheel of Time?
 

Ireth

Myth Weaver
Characters hiding things from each other is not the same as the author hiding things from the reader. One is natural and the other one feels artificial.

Yes, but I was planning to hide that certain detail from the readers as well, by virtue of the other characters not knowing it and the character in hiding never being a POV character, until the reveal comes at the climax. Would that still work?
 
What's this about Wheel of Time?
You never got frustrated by the male-female relationships? Jordan basically presents males and females as being absurdly proud of their sex and unwilling to accept that the opposite sex has any positive qualities whatsoever. This devolves to the point that the characters that LIKE and trust each other are unwilling to reveal what they know to each other and causes further issues for them.

I think it is a very backwards view of gender relationships, but maybe that is how it is for most people? Do all men assume that women know nothing and are ruled by their hormones and that a guy would know better in any situation? and do all women assume that men know nothing and are ruled by their anatomy and that a girl would know better in any situation?

Any male/female relationship in that book series almost always has internal dialogue where the POV character talks about how inept the opposite gender character is and how they can't confide in them because of their gender, when the thing that they should be confiding in them is the missing piece of the puzzle that the opposite gender character needed or if they would just bloody talk to each other without trying to take dominance they could see what they needed to do and how to beat the bloody bad guys.

In one-five chapters, the POV is reversed and we get treated to how the opposite gender character thinks all the characters that are opposite gender to them are inept and they can't tell them their missing piece of the puzzle.

It is B-E-Y-O-N-D frustrating for me while reading that series and the only thing I dislike about it.

Yes, but I was planning to hide that certain detail from the readers as well, by virtue of the other characters not knowing it and the character in hiding never being a POV character, until the reveal comes at the climax. Would that still work?

It would just depend on how you manage it. Anything can be done and any rule can be broken if done well. I hide things from my readers too, but I definitely hint at what is hidden so there is no Deus Ex shenanigans.
 

Mindfire

Istar
You never got frustrated by the male-female relationships? Jordan basically presents males and females as being absurdly proud of their sex and unwilling to accept that the opposite sex has any positive qualities whatsoever. This devolves to the point that the characters that LIKE and trust each other are unwilling to reveal what they know to each other and causes further issues for them.

I think it is a very backwards view of gender relationships, but maybe that is how it is for most people? Do all men assume that women know nothing and are ruled by their hormones and that a guy would know better in any situation? and do all women assume that men know nothing and are ruled by their anatomy and that a girl would know better in any situation?

Any male/female relationship in that book series almost always has internal dialogue where the POV character talks about how inept the opposite gender character is and how they can't confide in them because of their gender, when the thing that they should be confiding in them is the missing piece of the puzzle that the opposite gender character needed or if they would just bloody talk to each other without trying to take dominance they could see what they needed to do and how to beat the bloody bad guys.

In one-five chapters, the POV is reversed and we get treated to how the opposite gender character thinks all the characters that are opposite gender to them are inept and they can't tell them their missing piece of the puzzle.

It is B-E-Y-O-N-D frustrating for me while reading that series and the only thing I dislike about it.

...maybe this is just me, but I find that kinda funny. :D
 
Rule 4 is a fairly standard rule re short stories, but off the top of my head I can't think of any Vonnegut short stories. Someone may enlighten me.

I don't think he's serious about rule 8 - subverting the 'rule' paradigm perhaps (which would be typical Vonnegut). If you think about his better stories, there's a fairly standard drip feed of information which reveals the plot. Sirens of Titan for example - brilliant story that could never have been guessed by the reader until pretty much the last page but made perfect sense in retrospect.
 

Mindfire

Istar
I don't think he's serious about rule 8 - subverting the 'rule' paradigm perhaps (which would be typical Vonnegut). If you think about his better stories, there's a fairly standard drip feed of information which reveals the plot. Sirens of Titan for example - brilliant story that could never have been guessed by the reader until pretty much the last page but made perfect sense in retrospect.

So... he's trolling?
 

Amanita

Maester
I feel about those rules the same way I'm feeling about such things most of the time. They're worth looking at and thinking about but definitely not something you actually have to follow.
Following rule 3 has actually helped my story greatly during the last weeks. My main character finally has a goal rather than being pushed around by other people and circumstances which solved many of my problems at the same time.
All the rest is up to discussion though I'm also having my doubts if the last one is really supposed to be taken seriously.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
It is B-E-Y-O-N-D frustrating for me while reading that series and the only thing I dislike about it.

Yeah. It actually renders the entire series somewhat stupid. I couldn't take reading them anymore around book ten, so I just listen to them in audio format when I have the time and desire.
 

Mindfire

Istar
Yeah. It actually renders the entire series somewhat stupid. I couldn't take reading them anymore around book ten, so I just listen to them in audio format when I have the time and desire.

Am I the only one who finds gender hostility humorous?
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Am I the only one who finds gender hostility humorous?

It's not a matter of humor or something like that. Jordan isn't writing a comedy. These are serious, world-changing issues and the characters in the book act quite seriously with respect toward them. Then you get people who have known each other all their lives withholding essential information from one another because of some gender consideration and the conspiracies that goes with them, and at some point it stretches credulity to the breaking point. It is one thing to poke fun at gender or even have ongoing tensions that revolve around gender, but when they characters get to the point that their actions are outright stupid and inexplicable (like not having a thirty second discussion with someone you've known your entire life in order to bring resolution to a problem), then it is so contrived as to be ridiculous. That's my problem with it.
 

Mindfire

Istar
For the record, why do men and women not get along in Jordan's world? I mean aside from the usual reasons. Is there some kind of magical gender-distrust doohickey?
 

Ankari

Hero Breaker
Moderator
For the record, why do men and women not get along in Jordan's world? I mean aside from the usual reasons. Is there some kind of magical gender-distrust doohickey?

Yeah, it's the way power is distributed unevenly. Aes Sedai, Wisdom, Aiel wise ones and whatever the people that call the winds for the seafaring folk (Windcallers?). You don't have a lot of power falling in the hands of men, do you? It's unsettling to find all the power concentrated in one group with the other group having no chance of obtaining that power.

Until Rand came.
 

Mindfire

Istar
Yeah, it's the way power is distributed unevenly. Aes Sedai, Wisdom, Aiel wise ones and whatever the people that call the winds for the seafaring folk (Windcallers?). You don't have a lot of power falling in the hands of men, do you? It's unsettling to find all the power concentrated in one group with the other group having no chance of obtaining that power.

Until Rand came.

Social commentary? lol
 

Philip Overby

Staff
Article Team
Could we start a new thread to discuss Wheel of Time gender roles?

Pertaining to what people have said about these rules, I think "rules" are good to follow if they help your writing. Take a rule from one guy and take another from another one. If it helps your writing to have the rule "Always write upside down on Tuesday," then do that.
 
Could we start a new thread to discuss Wheel of Time gender roles?

Pertaining to what people have said about these rules, I think "rules" are good to follow if they help your writing. Take a rule from one guy and take another from another one. If it helps your writing to have the rule "Always write upside down on Tuesday," then do that.

I'm surprised you didn't go make the thread, but I tried to sum up all salient points and started it. Here yins go: http://mythicscribes.com/forums/novels-stories/5580-gender-roles-wheel-time.html#post69807
 

Ghost

Inkling
the whole plot of the second book hinges on the identity of one central character being concealed until the climax. Granted, she has very good reason to hide her identity

I was planning to hide that certain detail from the readers as well [...] until the reveal comes at the climax. Would that still work?

I can't tell without reading it, but based on what you've said, she has a good reason to keep her secret. When it makes sense for the character to keep the secret and the reveal feels natural (instead of convenient), it's fine. What I'm against is situations where it doesn't make sense for characters to hide information, given their personalities and the stakes. Characters withholding important info for petty reasons despite knowing the stakes annoy me.

When the author holds his cards close until the end instead of revealing things to the characters or the reader, things get trickier. While reading, I sometimes feel like the author jumped out of my closet, twirled his cape, and said "A-ha!" when the reveal occurs. The reader should be the one saying "A-ha!" not the author, and it's an a-ha that means "I understand now!" vs. the author's "I gotcha!"

I was going to say you could show that the stakes are too high for the character to reveal her secret or establish that she's not a trusting person, but it sounds like you've done the first. I didn't mean to frighten people by complaining so much. :eek:

If you haven't, it might help to show hesitation or guardedness on her part. Maybe she hesitates to help with the other characters and trails off when she talks about herself. Maybe she snaps at them to leave her alone when they ask about her past. Maybe she laughs it off or distracts them. Telling too much about her might put her real identity at odds with the reader's perception of her. If we never know much about her history, only her present personality, it might be easier to digest new developments.

I'm guessing blindly since I haven't read it, but it seems that the reveal is the most important part of this scenario. That's when the characters and the reader all find out about her identity and when the reader might possibly feel cheated. Since she's not a PoV character, I'm not sure how that works. I can see how it might frustrate some readers that she had this card up her sleeve all along. Someone else might have a better idea of what it takes to balance those elements.
 

Ireth

Myth Weaver
I can't tell without reading it, but based on what you've said, she has a good reason to keep her secret. When it makes sense for the character to keep the secret and the reveal feels natural (instead of convenient), it's fine. What I'm against is situations where it doesn't make sense for characters to hide information, given their personalities and the stakes. Characters withholding important info for petty reasons despite knowing the stakes annoy me.

Well, she's not quite as trusting as you might think. One of the POV characters is her former lover; they still have strong feelings for each other despite being forbidden to be together. However, she is now a fugitive from the Kings of Faerie, thanks in part to said former lover (who helped her escape from prison to avoid a fate worse than death), and as they were separated while fleeing for their lives, she fears he may have been captured and forced to reveal her whereabouts, so she hides her identity because she feels she can't risk him discovering her again. This gets complicated when they actually do meet again, and he hasn't actually revealed her whereabouts to anyone. He doesn't recognize her, but she recognizes him.

When the author holds his cards close until the end instead of revealing things to the characters or the reader, things get trickier. While reading, I sometimes feel like the author jumped out of my closet, twirled his cape, and said "A-ha!" when the reveal occurs. The reader should be the one saying "A-ha!" not the author, and it's an a-ha that means "I understand now!" vs. the author's "I gotcha!"

Understood.

I was going to say you could show that the stakes are too high for the character to reveal her secret or establish that she's not a trusting person, but it sounds like you've done the first. I didn't mean to frighten people by complaining so much. :eek:

No worries. ^^

If you haven't, it might help to show hesitation or guardedness on her part. Maybe she hesitates to help with the other characters and trails off when she talks about herself. Maybe she snaps at them to leave her alone when they ask about her past. Maybe she laughs it off or distracts them. Telling too much about her might put her real identity at odds with the reader's perception of her. If we never know much about her history, only her present personality, it might be easier to digest new developments.

*nodnod* Good points.

I'm guessing blindly since I haven't read it, but it seems that the reveal is the most important part of this scenario. That's when the characters and the reader all find out about her identity and when the reader might possibly feel cheated. Since she's not a PoV character, I'm not sure how that works. I can see how it might frustrate some readers that she had this card up her sleeve all along. Someone else might have a better idea of what it takes to balance those elements.

The four POV characters are those I follow from the first couple of chapters; the woman in question doesn't show up in this story until several chapters in. This is just like the prequel, which has two main POV characters from the beginning, and a third that shows up for one scene when his POV companion is asleep but plot-relevant stuff still needs to happen.
 

Jess A

Archmage
Of Vonnegut's rules, I think I do number 6 the most. I'm horrible to my characters, short of killing them (most of the time), and I don't plan to change that. XD

Have you read Robin Hobb's Farseer trilogy? Her main character is a walking punching bag.
 
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