Wizard vs Wizard

[Sheilawisz]

After a request was made to have a Wizard vs Wizard thread, I have decided to open one so we can share our points of view about hypothetical battles between Fantasy characters.

This thread is not to give votes to your favourites, but to discuss how and why a Fantasy character would defeat another in battle. The characters in question must have magical powers of any kind (hence the name of this thread!) so those without Magic are not allowed to fight.

You can choose the characters that will engage in epic battle =)

 

[Steerpike]

So, I guess I'd have to think first of who the most powerful Wizards are in fantasy literature. Here are a few that come to mind:

The Lady (The Black Company), who has already been mentioned.

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Soulcatcher (The Black Company), sister to The Lady, and a bad ass, seen here in the cover illustration of The Black Company:

Quick Ben (Malazan Series), an incredibly powerful wizard, seen here in some fan art:

Elric of Melnibone (Michael Moorcock's Elric Books), at the same time physically weak, and a powerful, eternally-reincarnated sorceror with a sword that is the embodiment of a demon. Seen here in art that I think was by Michael Whelan:

 

[Reaver]

Soulcatcher (The Black Company), sister to The Lady, and a bad ass, seen here in the cover illustration of The Black Company:

This looks like a really blatant rip-off and poor attempt at drawing and trying to hide the fact that the artist ripped off the image of Darth Vader. Hopefully there's no line of dialogue somewhere in the book where someone says: "Don't try to frighten us with your sorcerer's ways, Soulcatcher."


In fact, I can only think of two more blatant Darth Vader ripoffs...these two:

 

[Steerpike]

This looks like a really blatant rip-off and poor attempt at drawing and trying to hide the fact that the artist ripped off the image of Darth Vader.

The book was published in 1984, the year after Return of the Jedi, so I'm sure the marketing people were cognizant of that look. Of course, Soulcatcher would eat Vader for breakfast.

Note that she isn't wearing a chainmail bikini

 

[Sheilawisz]

I am curious, what is the extent of the powers of the Lady and Soulcatcher? What can they do and cannot do? What kind of Magic can they perform?

It may be a little difficult for me to take part in this thread, because I have read very few Fantasy books compared to what many of you have read... I am sure it will be fun, anyway =)

Are they sorceresses or witches of some kind, or maybe they are more similar to paranormal entities??

 

[Steerpike]

I don't like books with overpowered characters. It's a Deus Ex-Machina throughout the entire story.

The Black Company series doesn't have that problem, though I have seen it arise in other situations.

 

[Steerpike]

I am curious, what is the extent of the powers of the Lady and Soulcatcher? What can they do and cannot do? What kind of Magic can they perform?

Good question, Sheila. I'll write a bit about them when I'm off work tonight (or maybe someone else who has read the books will chime in between now and then).

 

[Reaver]

The book was published in 1984, the year after Return of the Jedi, so I'm sure the marketing people were cognizant of that look. Of course, Soulcatcher would eat Vader for breakfast.

Note that she isn't wearing a chainmail bikini

So then it is a blatant ripoff of Darth Vader's look. Dr. Doom debuted in 1962, so maybe they were cognizant of that too.

At least Marvel changed the color of Doom's armor and cloak. I'd rather the artist at least put her in a different color of armor.

 

[Mindfire]

...didn't we do this already? With polls and brackets and... does nobody else remember that?

 

[Steerpike]

...didn't we do this already? With polls and brackets and... does nobody else remember that?

Yeah, but the end result was kind of lame because everyone just voted for Gandalf as a popularity contest.

 

[Darkblade]

Yeah, but the end result was kind of lame because everyone just voted for Gandalf as a popularity contest.

Well to be fair Gandalf was more of an Angel than a wizard. Being an immortal agent of a higher good power sent into the world to guide and protect it. That puts him a fair bit higher than most more mortal wizards.

 

[MadMadys]

So then it is a blatant ripoff of Darth Vader's look. Dr. Doom debuted in 1982, so maybe they were cognizant of that too.

Dr. Doom first debuted in 1962 (FF #5) and was modeled as such, according to Jack Kirby (who created the character), because they were going for 'death' as a villain: "It was the reason for the armor and the hood. Death is connected with armor and the inhuman-like steel. Death is something without mercy, and human flesh contains that mercy."

I have no other relevant information or comments to add to this thread.

 

[Steerpike]

Well to be fair Gandalf was more of an Angel than a wizard. Being an immortal agent of a higher good power sent into the world to guide and protect it. That puts him a fair bit higher than most more mortal wizards.

The primary problem is that not everyone has read all of the works at issue, so they understandably go with what they know. Whether an agent of a higher power or not, I think it is difficult to set Gandalf above the likes of Elric, or The Lady. I think Quick Ben would give him a good run as well. This is simply because these works deal with a power level of magic that is much higher than that of Lord of the Rings, and the characters in them reflect it.

Elric, for example, not only wield his demon sword, he actually calls on gods and binds them to his will. Ultimately, he kills at least one god, in a world where gods are not routinely killed by mortals. That sets a pretty high bar, even if you're more of an Angel. And, in the context of the world of Middle-Earth, for example, those higher powers were not available to him. He was there in a weaker and more mortal state. If we take the characters as presented in the world in which they live, I don't think he holds up so well strength-wise against those from more high-powered settings. That said, I like Gandalf a great deal.

 

[Sheilawisz]

I really like Gandalf, but the problem with him and the other Wizards from The Lord of the Rings is that it was never shown or explained what was the true extent of their magical powers.

I would love to see Gandalf teleporting, transforming Orcs into squirrels and blasting the doors of Mordor with green lightning, but apparently he was not allowed by some higher power to fully display his Magic... Then, it's difficult to bring Gandalf into hypothetical Fantasy battles and decide what would be the result of a fight.

Gandalf was shown in the movies to have some reality-warping style powers, though =)

 

[Reaver]

Dr. Doom first debuted in 1962 (FF #5) and was modeled as such, according to Jack Kirby (who created the character), because they were going for 'death' as a villain: "It was the reason for the armor and the hood. Death is connected with armor and the inhuman-like steel. Death is something without mercy, and human flesh contains that mercy."

I have no other relevant information or comments to add to this thread.

The 1982 was a typo. But thanks for acknowledging that. They're all a ripoff of Dr. Doom.

 

[Reaver]

The primary problem is that not everyone has read all of the works at issue, so they understandably go with what they know. Whether an agent of a higher power or not, I think it is difficult to set Gandalf above the likes of Elric, or The Lady. I think Quick Ben would give him a good run as well. This is simply because these works deal with a power level of magic that is much higher than that of Lord of the Rings, and the characters in them reflect it.

Elric, for example, not only wield his demon sword, he actually calls on gods and binds them to his will. Ultimately, he kills at least one god, in a world where gods are not routinely killed by mortals. That sets a pretty high bar, even if you're more of an Angel. And, in the context of the world of Middle-Earth, for example, those higher powers were not available to him. He was there in a weaker and more mortal state. If we take the characters as presented in the world in which they live, I don't think he holds up so well strength-wise against those from more high-powered settings. That said, I like Gandalf a great deal.

Who's to say that their powers would even work in the universe that contains Middle Earth? Or are they so awesome that their powers work everywhere? If so, this is a prime example of overpowered characters and lazy writing. They can kill gods or bind them to their will? Where's the challenge for these characters? They're walking, talking Deus Ex Machinas.

 

[MadMadys]

The 1982 was a typo. But thanks for acknowledging that. They're all a ripoff of Dr. Doom.

Which explains why they all hate Reed Richards, if you think about it.

 

[Reaver]

The Undisputed Champ

Which explains why they all hate Reed Richards, if you think about it.

Even Reed Richards hates Reed Richards.

I know someone who can kick all these wizards asses any day of the week and twice on Sunday:

​

 

[Sheilawisz]

Lord of the Rings magical powers seen in the movies:

1- The magical fireworks that explode in unrealistic and unnatural fashion are clearly a form of reality warping.
2- Saruman causing a storm and lightning bolts to attack the Fellowship as they climb the mountains.
3- Gandalf creating a magical shield against the Balrog.
4- Gandalf (when he comes back) heating Aragorn's sword to disarm him.
5- Again, Gandalf casting a magical beam that repels the Nazgul.

Anything else that I missed??

 

[Phietadix]

Oh I have a wizard to put forth.

Tom Bombadil. (yes I know he's not technicly a wizard, but he is powerful)