Wizard vs Wizard

[MadMadys]

I know someone who can kick all these wizards asses any day of the week and twice on Sunday:

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Yeah, whatever.

 

[Darkblade]

The biggest problem in comparing magic users from different works is that they all have different magic systems. What might be obscenely powerful in one world is not all that impressive in an other.

As a random example the Harry Dresden of the Dresden Files series is considered moderately skilled but very powerful as a wizard (before his insane number of power-ups). Generally this means he can pull a whole heck of a lot of destructive energy for offensive magic or various more refined but still not subtle magics. This means he can probably toast some of the more subtle magic users from worlds where magic is less showy, such as Harry Potter or Kvothe from Kingkiller Chronicles with his Sympathy magic (again before powerups, naming magic might make this a fun little battle). On the other hand the likes of Elric or The Lady would be able to take Dresden without even breaking a sweat.

That's before we get into the really weird types of magic and how they would interact with each other. Biothaumaturgy as seen in the Bas-Lag series on the rare occasion it is used for offensive purposes could potentially rip the magic right out of any mage that has their magic as a hereditary and therefore genetic trait. Twilight Sparkle of My Little Pony: Friendship is magic has the ability to copy any spell she sees or reads about, impressive but not Earth Shattering in her home setting but when crossed with higher level magics from other worlds it gets potentially apocalyptic. This is only the tip of the ice berg.

That is not to say it isn't worthwhile to bit fictional characters against one another but it really needs to be done on a case by case basis not in bulk like this.

 

[Steerpike]

Yes, Darkblade. The comparisons are fundamentally flawed on some level because the rules of the universe, as it were, are vastly different from setting to setting. We still had some interesting "death matches" doing just that, however

 

[Darkblade]

Individual death matches between characters can be quite fun to discuss but in bulk with every witch, wizard, mage and spell caster ever conceived in the fray there are just too many factors to consider all at once.

 

[Devor]

For me, these kinds of battles are poor reflections because these matches focus on raw power, and none of the subtleties or character which actually make the wizards impressive to a reader.

Let me create a character that casts his magic by drawing on the life energy of those surrounding him, killing them at once, just so he can cast a spell that creates the tissue paper he needs to blow his nose. Assuming the fight starts with characters in proximate range of each other, this wizard wins at once.

 

[Reaver]

Yeah, whatever.

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[ThinkerX]

I am curious, what is the extent of the powers of the Lady and Soulcatcher? What can they do and cannot do? What kind of Magic can they perform?

I'll take a stab at this (somewhat spoilerish) :

First, the 'Lady' and 'Soulcatcher' are sisters, members of a group of sorcerers who ruled an evil empire until being deposed (other luminaries include 'Shifter', 'Howler', 'the Hanged Man', ect). The 'Lady' was married to a real powerful and real nasty piece of work (very nearly on a par with Shielawisz's female mages) termed the 'Dominator'. The Dominator, his wife the Lady, and the Ten who were Taken (geased wizards including Soulcatcher).

That said...The Lady knew how to make flying carpets, could do a sort of 'mind scan' spell (less than perfect), could Take (geas) other powerful wizards, conjure demonic beasties, and cast...well most of the flashier AD&D destructive type spells.

'Soulcatcher'...was flat out insane. Personality wise, she'd probably fit right in with some of Sheilawizs's mages. The sort of person who'd expend insane resources on what would amount to a minor prank, or destroy a large city on a whim. The implication was she devoured souls to fuel her magic, but the souls were not fully digested, which manifested in the form of her speaking to herself and others in a whole slew of radically different voices. She was fond of illusions, charms, and necromatic type magic.

It may be a little difficult for me to take part in this thread, because I have read very few Fantasy books compared to what many of you have read... I am sure it will be fun, anyway =)

Ok...what gives? Are you busy with life or are you reading romances, classics, or something else?

-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-0-

That said, a few more wizards for your consideration:

Pug - from Feists 'Riftwar' and subsequent books. He originally had a failed apprenticeship as a lesser mage before being captured and taken to another planet where he recieved training as a 'Great One' Lesser mages in this system are essentially magical tinkerers, mixing potions, making amulets, and fabricating magical one-offs with a few illusions and charms thrown in. Great Ones practice a mostly mental sort of magic: fireballs, telekinesis, levitation, that sort of thing. Ultimately, Pug mastered both sorts of magic and went on to pick up some tricks from the elves. He became an expert on Gate magic, though not so great at teleportation.

Macros the Black - also from the Riftwar saga. Pugs mentor, a magician with a murky past extending back several centuries. He had all of Pug's skills plus time travel.

Nakor - Another of Pugs associates. A standout personality wise: despite an amazing range of abilities, he insisted he was no magician, but merely knew some tricks. Said tricks included a sort of portable gate at the bottom of his knapsack to a fruit warehouse, and an assortment of illusions and charms.

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Nevyn, from Kerr's 'Deverry' series. Most think him a traveling herbalist, but he is actually a master of elemental magic: the various elemental lords have granted him authority over a quarter of their subjects - and most magic in this system is elemental based. Apart from that, he can shapechange into a giant bird, speak mind to mind over vast distances, and work a large number of petty charms and illusions. Because of an arrogant screwup while an apprentice, he is cursed to live a vastly longer than normal lifespan.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

For me, these kinds of battles are poor reflections because these matches focus on raw power, and none of the subtleties or character which actually make the wizards impressive to a reader.

Let me create a character that casts his magic by drawing on the life energy of those surrounding him, killing them at once, just so he can cast a spell that creates the tissue paper he needs to blow his nose. Assuming the fight starts with characters in proximate range of each other, this wizard wins at once.

Dr. Manhattan can kill with a thought, and he can reassemble himself. He wins no matter the opponent, because he can bend matter at will and he cannot die. (Of course, my own cheap overpowered character can beat Manhattan's willpower with "won'tpower" which negates everything.)

But seriously, while "my wizard can beat up your wizard" and making a cheap, overpowered characters are fun things to do, I agree with the point that power level is only relevant to the story. In Dr. Manhattan's case, his unmatched power works for the story because his role is to be the super being who could save the world if he cared, but he doesn't, so he gets duped by the world's smartest hero-turned-villain and kills the best guy in the entire superhero genre.

In conclusion, I hate Dr. Manhattan.




The big, blue @#%*!

 

[Mindfire]

Not sure if this is cheating but...

The Dragonborn, from Skyrim.
In a relatively short period of time, the Dragonborn:

• Defeated the dragon god Alduin and slay countless ordinary dragons.
  
• Traveled to the land of the dead and returned.
  
• Mastered over 20 dragon shouts which give him the ability to do things like summon dragons and ancient heroes, breath fire and frost, control the weather, become intangible, decimate enemies vitality, command animals, instill fear into foes, and blast enemies with a wall of pure force.
  
• Become a powerful warrior, assassin, and master of Tamriel's arcane arts, allowing him to attack with fire, frost, or lightning, or summon powerful daedra to attack his foes.
  
• Gained the blessing of and carried artifacts related to several gods and daedra, increasing his power and knowledge.
  
• Confronted and killed countless undead, including the dreaded Dragon Priests.
  
• Read two Elder Scrolls without succumbing to blindness.
  
• Became a powerful werewolf and/or vampire lord and killed the Vampire Lord Harkon.

There's probably more that I'm forgetting.

 

[Mindfire]

Dr. Manhattan can kill with a thought, and he can reassemble himself. He wins no matter the opponent, because he can bend matter at will and he cannot die. (Of course, my own cheap overpowered character can beat Manhattan's willpower with "won'tpower" which negates everything.)

But seriously, while "my wizard can beat up your wizard" and making a cheap, overpowered characters are fun things to do, I agree with the point that power level is only relevant to the story. In Dr. Manhattan's case, his unmatched power works for the story because his role is to be the super being who could save the world if he cared, but he doesn't, so he gets duped by the world's smartest hero-turned-villain and kills the best guy in the entire superhero genre.

In conclusion, I hate Dr. Manhattan.




The big, blue @#%*!

I think somebody like the Spectre or Galactus could take Dr. Manhattan.

 

[Sheilawisz]

@ThinkerX: Thanks for those descriptions, both the Lady and Soulcatcher sound like really powerful and deadly characters!! Actually I like that style of Magic, I mean Magic defined as a really awe-inspiring and terrible power...

Maybe I have not read as many Fantasy books as others here in Mythic Scribes because, for some reason, Fantasy is so strong in the English-speaking world and relatively rare in other languages. All the Fantasy series that people talk about are English language works, while most of the books that I have read in my life are not.

@Mindfire: That Dragonborn sounds great!!

Well, we have to decide which characters will take part in the first battle. I suggest... The Lady vs the White Witch from Narnia =)

What do you think?

 

[Reaver]

In conclusion, I hate Dr. Manhattan.
The big, blue @#%*!

I hate Dr. Tits on a Bull too.

 

[Mindfire]

@ThinkerX: Thanks for those descriptions, both the Lady and Soulcatcher sound like really powerful and deadly characters!! Actually I like that style of Magic, I mean Magic defined as a really awe-inspiring and terrible power...

Maybe I have not read as many Fantasy books as others here in Mythic Scribes because, for some reason, Fantasy is so strong in the English-speaking world and relatively rare in other languages. All the Fantasy series that people talk about are English language works, while most of the books that I have read in my life are not.

@Mindfire: That Dragonborn sounds great!!

Well, we have to decide which characters will take part in the first battle. I suggest... The Lady vs the White Witch from Narnia =)

What do you think?

While I will defend Gandalf, I'm not sure the Witch has a prayer. If she could get close enough to use her wand that's one thing, but if not... Anyway, the Witch's greatest power (aside from making it always Winter but never Christmas) came from her ability to deceive, manipulate, and intimidate, not necessarily from her magic. She was far stronger and more powerful than an ordinary human, but probably not on the level of some of the other wizards named here. But then again, we don't really know much about what the Witch could do. Lewis didn't show off her powers much. She was shown to be more of a temptress and a tyrant than a warrior or battlemage.

Now if the battle takes place in Charn however... that's a different story. The Witch, when she was known as simply Jadis, managed to destroy her entire planet because she had discovered the greatest power known to her people: the Deplorable Word, a one-word spell that destroyed all life except the one who spoke it. But it only works in Charn (I think). If the battle takes place there, all Jadis has to do is speak the Deplorable Word and even the Lady will drop dead. But outside of Charn, the Lady has a definite edge.

 

[Reaver]

Just my opinion but I think that stories with overpowered characters are pure schlock and nothing more. If you have beings that are so powerful that they cannot ever be destroyed and who can undo entire universes with a word, what challenge is there for them? That's the problem I have with the later versions of D&D that allow players to play as demi-gods and gods. It's just lazy writing with no real originality.

Just like in The Legendary One's earlier example with Dr. Manhattan. He's so ridiculously powerful he's totally useless.

 

[Sheilawisz]

The battle cannot take place in Charn because it was destroyed, right??

I would say that, for this fight, we should have the Lady invading Narnia so the White Witch steps forward to engage the newcomer in battle. If the Lady can fly (I understand that she can) then she can hit the Witch from above, but what if the Witch tries to transform her into stone??

Can the Lady simply throw some sort of highly destructive blast and wipe out the Witch and her armies with a single attack?

 

[Devor]

Dr. Manhattan can kill with a thought, and he can reassemble himself.

He's also not a wizard. If a wizard is a human(oid) who casts spells, then it's simple. Since my guy kills at the start of the spell - as a component of the spell, before he even knows what to do with the petty magic he gains - then he kills first.

More seriously, I would nominate one of the Ravenloft characters, Vecna, as a contender for ultimate wizard.

Just my opinion but I think that stories with overpowered characters are pure schlock and nothing more.

I've yet to read a story where I thought super-powered wizards were done well, but I haven't read most of the stories mentioned here so far.

 

[Reaver]

He's also not a wizard. If a wizard is a human(oid) who casts spells, then it's simple.

You have to be a human(oid) to qualify as a wizard? What other characteristics define a wizard?

 

[Devor]

You have to be a human and old to qualify as a wizard? What other characteristics define a wizard?

As in humanoid. With an i.

 

[Reaver]

As in humanoid. With an i.

Yeah, I fixed it.

 

[Mindfire]

The battle cannot take place in Charn because it was destroyed, right??/QUOTE]

Well, sort of. All life on Charn was destroyed, but the world itself still exists (in ruins.) Jadis was still living on Charn in a kind of suspended animation before she was reawakened by Polly and Digory using a magic bell. After that she accompanied them to England and Narnia, but her true invasion didn't happen until many years later when the Tree of Protection died.