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Wizard vs Wizard
- Thread starter Sheilawisz
- Start date
Myth Weaver- Thread starter
- #82
Thank you ThinkerX, maybe I will share some little parts of that story in the Showcase, maybe of the first novel... I would have to translate the selected parts first, but it really makes me curious what the other Mythic Scribes members would think of it =)
Now, any ideas for the Gandalf vs The Lady match??
Some members were saying that Gandalf would have no chance- Then, why is it that the Lady would defeat Gandalf so easily? What could Gandalf possibly do to defeat her or at least hold his own against the powerful sorceress?
Now, any ideas for the Gandalf vs The Lady match??
Some members were saying that Gandalf would have no chance- Then, why is it that the Lady would defeat Gandalf so easily? What could Gandalf possibly do to defeat her or at least hold his own against the powerful sorceress?
Please do so. If you deem it not sellable, there is always Wattpad...
The Lady has a flying carpet...but Gandalf has a giant eagle for an aerial steed. Plus, in Moria, Gandalf survived a miles deep plunge and was still fit to fight at the bottom. I don't know if the Lady could fly or not without her carpet. So...aerial contest, Gandalf knocks Lady off carpet...
- Thread starter
- #84
After trying to research more about the Lady and what Magic is really like in The Black Company, I still do not have a clear picture of the extent of the Lady's power or why exactly she is so powerful...
What can she do to overcome Gandalf's magical shields? How can she stop Gandalf's own attacks??
That point about flying carpet vs giant eagle is good. I would ask now, how fast can the Lady's magic carpet fly? Can she defend herself against a giant eagle as she flies?
I think it may be unfair if Gandalf gets the eagle's help, so... what would happen if they were fighting on the ground??
What can she do to overcome Gandalf's magical shields? How can she stop Gandalf's own attacks??
That point about flying carpet vs giant eagle is good. I would ask now, how fast can the Lady's magic carpet fly? Can she defend herself against a giant eagle as she flies?
I think it may be unfair if Gandalf gets the eagle's help, so... what would happen if they were fighting on the ground??
Sorry, but the eagle wouldn't make a damn bit of difference. The Lady would still tear Gandalf apart.
- Thread starter
- #86
What would the battle be like? How would the Lady defeat Gandalf so easily??
I have not read The Black Company, so please describe with more detail what the Magic system is like, why Gandalf would stand no chance in a battle. I want to defend Gandalf, but I would cheer for the Lady if I could understand better what she is really like.
I wish Tolkien had been a little clearer about how powerful his Wizards are, that would help too...
I have not read The Black Company, so please describe with more detail what the Magic system is like, why Gandalf would stand no chance in a battle. I want to defend Gandalf, but I would cheer for the Lady if I could understand better what she is really like.
I wish Tolkien had been a little clearer about how powerful his Wizards are, that would help too...
WARNING: SOME SPOILERS:
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Thats Glen Cook for you. The 'Black Company' series is written from the perspective of a 'grunt' - a nonmagical soldier in the field - rather than that of somebody who actually understands how magic works. (Even in the later books, when the Lady herself takes over the role of company chronicler, she doesn't go into great detail about the magical end of things). From Croakers perspective (he's a rather competent physician and primary narrator), he doesn't get much more out of the magic flying about than 'pretty lines of light' and 'Kawomph! - what happened to that hill?' The theory and exact abilities get left out. There is one exception, which drives much of the plot for book 3, which I'll get to in a bit. Meanwhile:
What the Lady is like is one of the dominant plots of the series. Eventually, with Croakers help, she goes from evil b*tch to...not so evil. I think in part this is because in book 3, she looses her powers. Which gets into the one magical element Cook
did go into considerable detail on - and something I don't remember seeing duplicated in any work of fantasy since - the 'True Name' - though it was a biggie in the earlier 'Wizard of Earthsea' by LeGuin.
The 'Lady', Soulcatcher, Dominator, ect are not true names, but use names. Names that it is safe for a wizard to use - because if somebody knows a wizards true name, they can compel the wizards obedience, or remove his/her power altogether. In book 3 of the Black Company, a low level wizard, not much more than a hedge mage, was responsible for a 'true name spell' which named the Lady and deprived her of power. From mighty magician to ordinary person in the blink of an eye. She did regain a portion of her powers later on, but that was something of a trap.
So...option 2 for Gandalf - if he knows her true name, she's toast. And Gandalf, who is actually a powerful spirit being made flesh, might actually be capable of learning her true name through arcane methods.
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Thats Glen Cook for you. The 'Black Company' series is written from the perspective of a 'grunt' - a nonmagical soldier in the field - rather than that of somebody who actually understands how magic works. (Even in the later books, when the Lady herself takes over the role of company chronicler, she doesn't go into great detail about the magical end of things). From Croakers perspective (he's a rather competent physician and primary narrator), he doesn't get much more out of the magic flying about than 'pretty lines of light' and 'Kawomph! - what happened to that hill?' The theory and exact abilities get left out. There is one exception, which drives much of the plot for book 3, which I'll get to in a bit. Meanwhile:
What the Lady is like is one of the dominant plots of the series. Eventually, with Croakers help, she goes from evil b*tch to...not so evil. I think in part this is because in book 3, she looses her powers. Which gets into the one magical element Cook
did go into considerable detail on - and something I don't remember seeing duplicated in any work of fantasy since - the 'True Name' - though it was a biggie in the earlier 'Wizard of Earthsea' by LeGuin.
The 'Lady', Soulcatcher, Dominator, ect are not true names, but use names. Names that it is safe for a wizard to use - because if somebody knows a wizards true name, they can compel the wizards obedience, or remove his/her power altogether. In book 3 of the Black Company, a low level wizard, not much more than a hedge mage, was responsible for a 'true name spell' which named the Lady and deprived her of power. From mighty magician to ordinary person in the blink of an eye. She did regain a portion of her powers later on, but that was something of a trap.
So...option 2 for Gandalf - if he knows her true name, she's toast. And Gandalf, who is actually a powerful spirit being made flesh, might actually be capable of learning her true name through arcane methods.
Asking questions like this are pretty much meaningless where The Black Company is concerned, because that's not how it is written. The magic doesn't work along the lines of neat little fireballs, or Harry Potter-types spells. If you read the book, you'll see what I mean. The Lady is essentially of demi-god level power, and the protagonist in the first book, Croaker, notes that she's something like the essence of shadow itself, and if not evil incarnate than close enough to it not to make a difference. She's powerful enough that the first time she came around causing trouble she couldn't be killed but had to be "imprisoned" for 400 or 500 years. In The Black Company she's back, and by the time she's done she has laid waste to most of a continent and is probably responsible for hundreds of thousands of deaths. But you can't just say "oh, what spell would she cast?" It doesn't work that way, and this again highlights a problem with trying to compare magic across books that are written in a vastly different manner. The best indicator that The Lady would have to be more powerful is that she is as powerful as I described above in a world where powerful, dangerous magic and powerful individuals are fairly prevalent.
Same thing with Elric. In those books, magic is literally all over the place, and he's summoning gods and commanding them, killing other gods, and so on. If you try to do a straight comparison of him to a middle earth wizard, it turns into "no contest" in a hurry. But in reality the comparison can't be made because the settings in which they operate are too different.
- Thread starter
- #89
All of that makes me very curious to read The Black Company, it does sound like a rather dark and grim Fantasy world with that really powerful, highly destructive Magic that is also my style...
Telling the story from the point of view of a common soldier without powers does make it difficult for the reader to grasp all the details about the Magic, but that example of 'pretty lines of light' and 'Kawomph! - what happened to that hill?' is a perfect clue to understand that it's way more flashy and destructive than Gandalf-style Magic.
However, I still believe that Gandalf's shields have a chance to take on the Lady's magical blasts... at least for some time. Then he could try to strike back with some of the powers seen in the movies, but if the Lady's magical defenses are as strong as her destructive blasts then Gandalf is outmatched.
The Lady's True-name weakness would be the only way for Gandalf to win, but I am starting to believe that the Lady would overpower him before he can try to figure that out...
Then, I would say that the Lady wins!! (again!)
Telling the story from the point of view of a common soldier without powers does make it difficult for the reader to grasp all the details about the Magic, but that example of 'pretty lines of light' and 'Kawomph! - what happened to that hill?' is a perfect clue to understand that it's way more flashy and destructive than Gandalf-style Magic.
However, I still believe that Gandalf's shields have a chance to take on the Lady's magical blasts... at least for some time. Then he could try to strike back with some of the powers seen in the movies, but if the Lady's magical defenses are as strong as her destructive blasts then Gandalf is outmatched.
The Lady's True-name weakness would be the only way for Gandalf to win, but I am starting to believe that the Lady would overpower him before he can try to figure that out...
Then, I would say that the Lady wins!! (again!)
Yeah if he learned her True Name, she'd be in trouble. That's the sort of thing you don't want to have happen to you in the world of the Black Company. Your True Name has power over you. You might like The Black Company. It's a fun read. It is kind of dark and gritty, but the narrator (name Croaker - he's the company physician) has a good narrative voice. The characters are interesting. I like Soulcatcher as a character, as well as most of the soldiers in "the company."
The only reason I think The Lady wins is because of the overall greater power level. Gandalf might be more powerful within the context of LotR than the Lady is within the context of The Black Company, but the power levels are so different that could can't easily put one up against the other because she's virtually a demigod. Same with the Malazan books (which were inspired in some parts by The Black Company). In the Malazan books you have gods running around interfering with things, mortals ascending to godhood, and so on. It puts the work on a totally different plane in terms of magic level than something like LotR, and so it seems to me at least that wizards in Malazan (like Quick Ben) would probably win against Gandalf as well. Same with Elric, and his summoning of and killing gods.
So - I don't know. How do you make a fair comparison between them when the assumptions of the baseline power level in the worlds are so different?
The only reason I think The Lady wins is because of the overall greater power level. Gandalf might be more powerful within the context of LotR than the Lady is within the context of The Black Company, but the power levels are so different that could can't easily put one up against the other because she's virtually a demigod. Same with the Malazan books (which were inspired in some parts by The Black Company). In the Malazan books you have gods running around interfering with things, mortals ascending to godhood, and so on. It puts the work on a totally different plane in terms of magic level than something like LotR, and so it seems to me at least that wizards in Malazan (like Quick Ben) would probably win against Gandalf as well. Same with Elric, and his summoning of and killing gods.
So - I don't know. How do you make a fair comparison between them when the assumptions of the baseline power level in the worlds are so different?
Phietadix
Auror
The trouble is you don't know how powerful Ganfalf Really is. How do you know he doesn't have these amazing powers too?
Sure. You can say that about any character if you're assuming powers beyond what is depicted. We can only go with we know. Considering that he let the balrog drag him into the depths, leaving the fellowship to blunder forward without him, I'm guessing he didn't have a huge arsenal of hidden powers he just wasn't using.
Mindfire
Istar
You could try comparing relative power levels rather than absolute power levels. This would mean that if two wizards are on equivalent tiers in-universe, they would be considered as equals despite their worlds' disparate power baselines.
EDIT:
The one hiccup is that the formula doesn't hold for extremely low magic worlds.
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You can, but then the advantage always goes to mages from low-magic settings, because in settings where there is little or no magic, those who have it can be very powerful in proportion to their world.
Mindfire
Istar
Ah. You ninja'd me before I could note that in my edit.
Also, given the Lady's vulnerability to her true name... I think Ged/Sparrowhawk from the Earthsea books could beat her. He's trained specifically to uncover others' true names.
The question is whether he could do it in time. There are plenty of people, including other very powerful and trained sorcerors, in the Black Company world who would have loved to have the true name of The Lady. Might be hard to get it before you're dead
Mindfire
Istar
The question is whether he could do it in time. There are plenty of people, including other very powerful and trained sorcerors, in the Black Company world who would have loved to have the true name of The Lady. Might be hard to get it before you're dead
But in his worldthe entire magic system revolves around names. It's at the core of his training. I think that gives him a distinct advantage.
Mindfire
Istar
Next battle: Wheel of Time's Rand al'Thor vs Harry Potter's Dumbledore.
Bonus points for rhyming.
Bonus points for rhyming.
- Thread starter
- #99
That would be an easy win for Dumbledore: Sure that Rand has more destructive firepower, but Dumbledore would simply transfigure him into a ferret before he can do anything.
Dumbledore could be teleporting to get out of the way of all the blasts anyway, and transfigure Rand when he catches him from behind. Plus, Dumbledore can be invisible, and set him on fire instantly...
Go, Dumbledore!!
Dumbledore could be teleporting to get out of the way of all the blasts anyway, and transfigure Rand when he catches him from behind. Plus, Dumbledore can be invisible, and set him on fire instantly...
Go, Dumbledore!!
Mindfire
Istar
Rand also is at a slight disadvantage in that Dumbledore would be immune to balefire, making his most powerful weapon useless.
