Women in fantasy

[Steerpike]

That said, I would say that making characters as three-dimensional as possible will avoid any sort of thoughts readers might have about the flatness of their presentation.

Yes, I think this is right. To me, if you approach all of your important characters (not necessary for unimportant ones) as people first, with personality traits you've defined to create the character, and then proceed by treating them as autonomous individuals with certain personality traits that you've given them, then you never really have to ask yourself whether X or Y is OK because the character is male or female. All that will matter is whether the act is in character (or whether there is a good reason for it not to be), and you'll know the answer to that without ever thinking about the sex of the character.

 

[Zero Angel]

But then, what does that achieve? Doesn't it to more good to offer your opinion to someone who will at least give it consideration than to discuss the work of someone who will likely never even see your response to it?

Well, we could do case studies? Otherwise, does anyone else feel we are just running around in circles?

 

[Mindfire]

Well, we could do case studies? Otherwise, does anyone else feel we are just running around in circles?

Seems like it... I mean, in each thread everyone basically says exactly what they said in the previous thread, except ith more civility. But that's progress I suppose.

I don't think case studies would be a bad idea.

 

[Jabrosky]

I still haven't read your stories, but I've noticed there's a certain way you tend to talk about your female protagonists--like they're not so much characters as dolls for you to pose. If that carries over to your stories, and people are pointing that out, that's not a criticism of sexualization, that's a criticism of lack of personality. (Again, I haven't read your stories yet, so I might be completely off base here.)

And where exactly do I do this?

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

For what it's worth, the first five Gor novels are good books -- real top-notch sword & planet stuff in the Burroughs' vein with a little tame 1960s sexual mores thrown in. At book six I can only assume Norman went through a nasty divorce IRL because things rapidly go downhill from there in terms of his views & portrayal of women.

 

[Mindfire]

And where exactly do I do this?

I don't mean to offend you. However, pretty much every other mention you make of your female characters is about how unbelievably exotic and hot they are and how you modeled them after your personal... tastes. Remember that one thread? Yeah... You might want to turn it down a notch. I'm sorry, but it had to be said.

 

[Philip Overby]

I'm interested in what is meant by "case studies." Does anyone have any suggestions as far as that goes?

 

[Feo Takahari]

I don't mean to offend you. However, pretty much every other mention you make of your female characters is about how unbelievably exotic and hot they are and how you modeled them after your personal... tastes. Remember that one thread? Yeah... You might want to turn it down a notch. I'm sorry, but it had to be said.

To follow up on this, I've never heard you describe your female characters'

* Temperaments
* Goals
* Fears
* Likes and dislikes

Only their

* Appearances

And to a lesser degree

* Skills

The last person I encountered who described all his female characters like this was that guy I mentioned earlier in the thread--the one who wrote a scene that was supposed to be from a female character's perspective, and it was all about how sexy and ****able she was. That's why I tend to be a bit suspicious when you say you're completely innocent and all these crazy liberals are criticizing you for no reason.

To be fair, you might do better in the writing than in the describing. I turned up your last Showcase while looking through your previous posts, and I didn't see anything obviously negative in it. Mukondi doesn't show much personality, but she's only at the beginning of her story, and she has plenty of time to grow.

 

[Steerpike]

This thread will be served best if we can keep the topic focused on general principles and not on personal criticisms, unless someone asks for a critique of something they've done.

 

[Philip Overby]

I'll echo what Steerpike said: let's end the personal criticisms. If you care to do that, please do so in private and not taking the thread in a different direction.

Like I said before, it's important to think of characters as being more round and not just a flat representation. This is a thought on writing in general that I think most of us are aware of.

 

[Mindfire]

This thread will be served best if we can keep the topic focused on general principles and not on personal criticisms, unless someone asks for a critique of something they've done.

As far as general principles go, what can be said that has not already been said?

 

[Jabrosky]

I don't really mind the personal criticisms even if they are directed towards me. I'm in a calm mood today, and I will concede that Feo is right when she says I focus more on my heroines' appearances than personality. In fact, I will go so far as to confess that I often conceive of my heroines as beautiful African women first before developing their personalities and other psychological characteristics. Perhaps that is the wrong way to go about character-building, but then I really do wish there were more beautiful African female characters in fiction in general.

Incidentally, Mukondi started out as a race-bent Shanna the She-Devil. Mukondi and Shanna have the same basic dinosaur-hunting jungle girl gimmick, they simply differ by racial appearance.

 

[Feo Takahari]

In fact, I will go so far as to confess that I often conceive of my heroines as beautiful African women first before developing their personalities and other psychological characteristics.

A fair way of starting things, I suppose--one of my characters was originally based on this.* Just be sure to develop them past that.

*She, incidentally, was based on this. Ain't Japanese fanart great?

 

[ascanius]

Yes, I think this is right. To me, if you approach all of your important characters (not necessary for unimportant ones) as people first, with personality traits you've defined to create the character, and then proceed by treating them as autonomous individuals with certain personality traits that you've given them, then you never really have to ask yourself whether X or Y is OK because the character is male or female. All that will matter is whether the act is in character (or whether there is a good reason for it not to be), and you'll know the answer to that without ever thinking about the sex of the character.

I dont know if I agree with this 100% I do think character sex needs to be taken into account to some degree. the characters sex will determine how they respond to events throughout their daily lives. For instance the AVERAGE woman is physically weaker than the AVERAGE male, yes I know there are exceptions. I think overlooking this aspect is what results in the super warrior chick. Their method of conflict resolution is going to be different. Even their way of thinking about things is going to be different. Im not talking about interests, playing with the boys, with trucks and action figures, those are interests. What I am talking about is how events are processed. Looking at conversations I have had with the women in my life I have noticed women place different meanings to things than men do even if they are both part of the same conversation. Ive had my friends get angry at me because of something I said. When I asked they told me why and I can understand how they got that idea. However when I asked my guy friends about it they didnt reach the same conclusion at all. For my guy friends it was simple and exactly what I said, for the girls they took meaning that I hadnt intended. They related the conversation to themselves while the guys it was just a conversation.

I have a question, is it possible to have a stereotypical female character, not flat or undeveloped, and have them be strong.

 

[Penpilot]

I won't speak for Steerpike, but here's what I think about this.

For instance the AVERAGE woman is physically weaker than the AVERAGE male, yes I know there are exceptions. I think overlooking this aspect is what results in the super warrior chick.

This trait is part of how you define your character regardless of sex. Is the character physically weak or physically strong? This is a question I'd ask regardless of sex. A 5'0 man would have a different outlook than a 6'5 man. Just as a 6'5 woman would have a different outlook than a 5'0 woman.

Their method of conflict resolution is going to be different.

Again, this is defined by who the character is. If a female character grew up with 5 brothers and the way she grew up solving problems with her siblings was to smack them in the face, this could be her default setting.

Even their way of thinking about things is going to be different.

Well, here are some links to articles that I found when googling up The Myth of Gender Differences. (Disclaimer. I didn't have time to check all the articles thoroughly, so please forgive me if I'm sticking a large foot into my mouth and presenting some sources of questionable veracity. Grain of Salt. This is the internet after all. But hopefully at the very least it will add food for thought.)

Busted! Five False Myths About Gender Differences | Divine Caroline

8 Myths About Sex Differences

http://www.campbell-kibler.com/Stereo.pdf

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...bout-the-differences-in-men-and-womens-brains

5 False Myths About Gender Differences | Care2 Healthy Living

 

[PaulineMRoss]

In fact, I will go so far as to confess that I often conceive of my heroines as beautiful African women first before developing their personalities and other psychological characteristics.

I find this interesting. I've read entire books without a single physical description of any of the main characters. I've also read books where all the main characters are beautiful (yes, Guy Gavriel Kay, I'm looking at you). It makes no difference, unless a character's appearance impinges on the plot somehow (Helen of Troy, or some such - although even then, I'd guess she had a powerful personality as well as looks). Then there are the books where the male and female leads are both described as beautiful in chapter 1, and I think: uh-oh, romance ahoy. Usually there are smouldering looks in chapter 2, rippling muscles in chapter 3, followed shortly thereafter by hot sex. [Not, you understand, that I have any objection to hot sex... but I do like a bit of plot on the side.]

But I have to say, American TV shows notwithstanding, most people are NOT beautiful, and I personally find such people more remote, somehow, and detached from real life. In our society, perhaps in most societies, beautiful people have everything easy, they tend to be wealthier, have better jobs and all the rest of it. They're less relateable, I suppose.

Basically, what I'm asking, in a very long-winded way, is why you start with looks? Is that important to the story you want to tell? Or is it just a personal preference? Have you ever written about people who are less than beautiful?

 

[ascanius]

This trait is part of how you define your character regardless of sex. Is the character physically weak or physically strong? This is a question I'd ask regardless of sex. A 5'0 man would have a different outlook than a 6'5 man. Just as a 6'5 woman would have a different outlook than a 5'0 woman.

Yes this is true but place a 5 ft man next to a 5 ft women and this difference is sex's is apparent. My little sister is about the same size as me and a black belt. sometimes we play around fighting nothing serious. However I know that if it ever came down to an actual fight I would only have to hit her once. Even though we are the same size and more able to fight I can overpower her. My other sister is taller and bigger than me yet I still know I can take her. I think ignoring such differences is what leads to the super heroin that surpasses the male soldiers.

Again, this is defined by who the character is. If a female character grew up with 5 brothers and the way she grew up solving problems with her siblings was to smack them in the face, this could be her default setting.

I disagree, first I know quite a few girls who grew up with brothers and they don't approach conflict the same way as a guy. 8 Myths About Sex Differences talks about aggression. It says males tend to use physical aggression more than females. Im not really interested in the amount but how it is achieved. It also says aggression is more or less the same with regards to the same sex. Here they are simply talking about the level of aggression but not how it is achieved. The one thing I have noticed is that when guys fight its physical but once the fight is done, its done, it might get bloody but usually that is it. Girls on the other hand don't resort as much to physical aggression but they are very good at using non physical means of aggression and it tends to be drawn out. My points above are simply that physical differences do exist and will impact to some extent how the character responds to problems. Im not saying use such differences to create a character but to keep them in mind.

Well, here are some links to articles that I found when googling up The Myth of Gender Differences. (Disclaimer. I didn't have time to check all the articles thoroughly, so please forgive me if I'm sticking a large foot into my mouth and presenting some sources of questionable veracity. Grain of Salt. This is the internet after all. But hopefully at the very least it will add food for thought.)

Busted! Five False Myths About Gender Differences | Divine Caroline

8 Myths About Sex Differences

http://www.campbell-kibler.com/Stereo.pdf

http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog...bout-the-differences-in-men-and-womens-brains

5 False Myths About Gender Differences | Care2 Healthy Living

I read through these articles and they don't really address what I'm getting at. I'm not talking about stereotypes such as women are better at math or what ever. I am talking about the differences in how men and women think.

10 Ways Men and Women Communicate Differently : Discovery Channel this explains more about what I was getting at.

my sister was telling me about how her boyfriend cried because of where he was at in his life. We talked about this for a while and I kept telling her my thoughts and advice. Later she grew frustrated and told me the problem was I was a guy and didn't understand the problem. she then told me if she was talking to her girlfriends they would immediately understand that she kept bringing up the fact he was crying bothered her because her rock showed a moment of weakness and didn't know what to do about it. The conversation had nothing to do with the difficulties they were having but how she was feeling about said difficulties, I didn't see this at all. To me, and all the guys I know, I saw it as problem --> solution, I took the conversation at face value. This is what I mean by guys and girls think differently, when girls talk there is more to the conversation than what is being said. And its not just conversation but also their world view. What is important to a guy might not necessarily be important to a girl and vice versa.

 

[Nihal]

Yes this is true but place a 5 ft man next to a 5 ft women and this difference is sex's is apparent. My little sister is about the same size as me and a black belt. sometimes we play around fighting nothing serious. However I know that if it ever came down to an actual fight I would only have to hit her once. Even though we are the same size and more able to fight I can overpower her. My other sister is taller and bigger than me yet I still know I can take her. I think ignoring such differences is what leads to the super heroin that surpasses the male soldiers.

When you underestimate your opponent you're giving him/her the advantage. You're also failing to consider that smaller opponents can extremely dangerous because while one of the same apparent power may try to overpower you, the smaller one is out for blood, s/he will use all of his/her power because s/he knows that s/he is in physical disadvantage. It includes not only the usual fight moves but dirty moves. Kick, bite, aim for the groin, head hits. It's what some people call the "strength of the mad".

 

[Steerpike]

Penpilot is exactly right. Developing your character based on what the average person of that sex, race, age, or whatever, might do is a mistake. Just view the character as a person, develop the character with depth in accordance with the traits you give, and go from there. I know women who can and have taken down men twice their size in fights; I know women who would lose a fight to another woman half their size. Making a decision on how female characters should be treated generally because you can beat your taller sister in a fight seems absurd to me, and it illustrates perfectly the problem of treating female characters as statistics or probabilities instead of treating them as individuals.

 

[Chilari]

Turning back to improving portrayal of female characters in our own works, can we brainstorm a few methods that the writers here who are less experienced with female characters can take away and actually use, rather than discussing abstracts and real life? What the differences between men and women are, and the degree to which this applies, varies from individual to individual, from society to society, and because we're all using different reference points and different experiences I don't think we can really come to a worthwhile conclusion; in any case that side of the discussion is moving away from what this should be, which is a writing-based topic.

So. My top tip for creating a rounded female character is this:

Give her a goal and a reason she wants to achieve that goal.
This can be independent of men and I think if you want to portray women in a non-sexist light it should not, most of the time, relate to sex. The goal and motivation can be suitable for a patriarchal society or it could be outside what might be normal. Maybe she's the princess of a small insignificant land and wants to secure a marriage to a prince or king or a powerful country to gain her mother's approval. Or maybe she wants to lead an army into battle against a large country to gain her mother's approval. Or her father's, for either. Maybe she wants to steal a magical artefact so she has enough money to live in comfort for the rest of her life. Maybe she wants to become a senator and make a difference for real people. I dunno. But give her something she wants and a reason to want it.

And consider making that goal completely unrelated to her gender, though hyper-feminist or conservatively feminine goals are allowed to. However, if she's not the main character, I urge you to make it utterly unrelated to the character who is the protagonist.