Women in fantasy

[Mindfire]

However, if she's not the main character, I urge you to make it utterly unrelated to the character who is the protagonist.

If her goal in no way relates to the protagonist, how can it possibly be relevant to the plot? It'd be like she has her own separate story completely unrelated to the main one. And if that's the case, you'd be better served by just making her subplot into an actual plot for a completely different book.

 

[Chilari]

What I meant by "unrelated to the protagonist" is, don't make her want to marry, sleep with, protect, kill or gain approval from the protagonist. Her goals can align without being directly related to the protagonist. Maybe her goal is similar to that of the protagonist - such as winning a war. Maybe it requires she go to the same place the protagonist is going, meaning she travels with him.

 

[Steerpike]

Writing tip #4 from a Joss Whedon interview:

4. EVERYBODY HAS A REASON TO LIVE
Everybody has a perspective. Everybody in your scene, including the thug flanking your bad guy, has a reason. They have their own voice, their own identity, their own history. If anyone speaks in such a way that they’re just setting up the next person’s lines, then you don’t get dialogue: you get soundbites. Not everybody has to be funny; not everybody has to be cute; not everybody has to be delightful, and not everybody has to speak, but if you don’t know who everybody is and why they’re there, why they’re feeling what they’re feeling and why they’re doing what they’re doing, then you’re in trouble.

 

[saellys]

I consider myself pro-feminist and anti-sexist insofar as I support women having the same rights, freedoms, and responsibilities as men, but as a fantasy artist and writer myself, I like depicting sexy women. I am a young heterosexual male after all. For certain ideologues to accuse me of some kind of horrible misogyny simply because I like to celebrate the beauty of the idealized female form is a personal insult. They are basically telling me I can't draw whatever I want. Now I can accept that sexualizing my heroines might bias my work towards a heterosexual male fanbase, but then I am not obligated to please every single demographic group out there. I create for my own enjoyment, not to cater to the politically correct.

I don't really mind the personal criticisms even if they are directed towards me. I'm in a calm mood today, and I will concede that Feo is right when she says I focus more on my heroines' appearances than personality. In fact, I will go so far as to confess that I often conceive of my heroines as beautiful African women first before developing their personalities and other psychological characteristics. Perhaps that is the wrong way to go about character-building, but then I really do wish there were more beautiful African female characters in fiction in general.

Physical attributes can be a vital part of character-building (especially if you want to represent something unusual in the white male dominated fantasy genre, and you want your audience to have no question about that character's traits). It's important to not stop there, though. I'm not trying to gang up on you with the forthcoming statement, but you did ask, and in my mind this falls under critique rather than personal criticism, and this thread was started with the intent to help us improve portrayals of female characters.

So here goes: in the two stories of yours that I've read, I came away knowing nothing about your characters as individuals aside from their physical attributes as seen through your very male gaze.

I'm not saying the male gaze or male sex drive is in any way wrong. However, when your protagonists and POV characters are women, it's important to recognize that in most cases, they don't look at themselves the same way you look at them. It's hard to get inside their heads when you're busy describing their bodies (or making their bodies the subject of dialogue that concerns them, or the like). They have other things to think about.

It's good that you want more beautiful African female characters in fiction in general, but it doesn't help representation to portray them primarily as the objects of your desire at the expense of writing them like real people. I don't know what your critics beyond this forum have said specifically, but some adjustments in those areas might help dam the flood of recrimination. If you're really getting that much backlash, it's probably time to examine your work closely and see if there's something to it. Dismissing the concerns of your readers outright isn't a great move. You can say you create solely for your own enjoyment, but you're still putting your work out there for other people to read. You've said in another thread that your critics aren't in your "target audience," but they're reading your work, so they are your audience.

Again, I write this with the utmost respect, in response only to what you've posted on this forum, rather than you as a person. (This is criticism I can apply to ASOIAF too, and my post history shows how much I adore Martin.) I'm taking care to make my language as straightforward as possible without being too harsh, but if I missed something offensive or was vague on a particular point, please let me know.

Turning back to improving portrayal of female characters in our own works, can we brainstorm a few methods that the writers here who are less experienced with female characters can take away and actually use, rather than discussing abstracts and real life? What the differences between men and women are, and the degree to which this applies, varies from individual to individual, from society to society, and because we're all using different reference points and different experiences I don't think we can really come to a worthwhile conclusion; in any case that side of the discussion is moving away from what this should be, which is a writing-based topic.

So. My top tip for creating a rounded female character is this:

Give her a goal and a reason she wants to achieve that goal.
This can be independent of men and I think if you want to portray women in a non-sexist light it should not, most of the time, relate to sex. The goal and motivation can be suitable for a patriarchal society or it could be outside what might be normal. Maybe she's the princess of a small insignificant land and wants to secure a marriage to a prince or king or a powerful country to gain her mother's approval. Or maybe she wants to lead an army into battle against a large country to gain her mother's approval. Or her father's, for either. Maybe she wants to steal a magical artefact so she has enough money to live in comfort for the rest of her life. Maybe she wants to become a senator and make a difference for real people. I dunno. But give her something she wants and a reason to want it.

And consider making that goal completely unrelated to her gender, though hyper-feminist or conservatively feminine goals are allowed to. However, if she's not the main character, I urge you to make it utterly unrelated to the character who is the protagonist.

To tie in with the quote Steerpike just posted, that goal doesn't have to be accomplished in the story or tied to the plot. I don't believe it even needs to be mentioned, necessarily. I have short, medium, and long term goals I've never told anyone about. If you, the writer, know what your character's goal is, it will influence the way that character acts in ways both small and large, and automatically make them feel more three-dimensional.

 

[Mindfire]

Writing tip #4 from a Joss Whedon interview:

*Snip*

*Bane voice* Well, of course! Their reason for living is to advance the plot!

 

[Jabrosky]

Basically, what I'm asking, in a very long-winded way, is why you start with looks? Is that important to the story you want to tell? Or is it just a personal preference? Have you ever written about people who are less than beautiful?

Admittedly the beautiful part is more important if I plan romantic or at least amorous sentiments between the male and female leads. I don't fixate so much on beauty when I can't fit such a subplot into my story.

Physical attributes can be a vital part of character-building (especially if you want to represent something unusual in the white male dominated fantasy genre, and you want your audience to have no question about that character's traits). It's important to not stop there, though. I'm not trying to gang up on you with the forthcoming statement, but you did ask, and in my mind this falls under critique rather than personal criticism, and this thread was started with the intent to help us improve portrayals of female characters.

So here goes: in the two stories of yours that I've read, I came away knowing nothing about your characters as individuals aside from their physical attributes as seen through your very male gaze.

I'm not saying the male gaze or male sex drive is in any way wrong. However, when your protagonists and POV characters are women, it's important to recognize that in most cases, they don't look at themselves the same way you look at them. It's hard to get inside their heads when you're busy describing their bodies (or making their bodies the subject of dialogue that concerns them, or the like). They have other things to think about.

It's good that you want more beautiful African female characters in fiction in general, but it doesn't help representation to portray them primarily as the objects of your desire at the expense of writing them like real people. I don't know what your critics beyond this forum have said specifically, but some adjustments in those areas might help dam the flood of recrimination. If you're really getting that much backlash, it's probably time to examine your work closely and see if there's something to it. Dismissing the concerns of your readers outright isn't a great move. You can say you create solely for your own enjoyment, but you're still putting your work out there for other people to read. You've said in another thread that your critics aren't in your "target audience," but they're reading your work, so they are your audience.

Again, I write this with the utmost respect, in response only to what you've posted on this forum, rather than you as a person. (This is criticism I can apply to ASOIAF too, and my post history shows how much I adore Martin.) I'm taking care to make my language as straightforward as possible without being too harsh, but if I missed something offensive or was vague on a particular point, please let me know.

I understand what you mean, and I take no offense at all. You and Chilari make good points about needing to develop female characters beyond looks.

 

[Kit]

Making a decision on how female characters should be treated generally because you can beat your taller sister in a fight seems absurd to me,.

He *thinks* he can beat his sister in a fight.

I have an acquaintance who also insists that despite my having trained for over a decade in three different martial arts- and him being a complete couch potato- if it ever came to a real fight, of course he would beat me, just because he has a penis.

I hope Ascanius never says this to his sister, because it is horribly condescending, insulting, and invalidating ("No matter how long and how hard you work, it won't ever do you any good- you will always lose"... yes, that's what you would be saying to her, it's one of those things women hear you say even though you didn't actually say it). People who train work their ASSES off, day in and day out, for years, and this is very much a core part of their identity. When you invalidate it/her by saying things like "She has a black belt, but I'd only have to hit her once" there's nothing more hurtful or infuriating you can come up with to say.

And also, the assumption is of very questionable truth. Sorry.

Women who train usually train with larger men (I work with larger men about 97% of my time), and we tailor our training to cope with that situation. We are not just playing patty cake. And a penis is *not* an automatic ticket to winning every physical fight.

There are things that people who don't train just can not comprehend. Please give your sister credit- or at the very least, the benefit of the doubt- for years of incredibly hard work that most people (male *or* female) are not capable of.

 

[Mindfire]

To be more precise, physical strength is no indicator of who will win a fight. As my Sifu says: All else being equal, speed beats power, and technique beats speed.

 

[Subcreator]

To be more precise, physical strength is no indicator of who will win a fight. As my Sifu says: All else being equal, speed beats power, and technique beats speed.

As an example of this, one of my characters is a twelve-year-old girl with at least a modicum of crazy who is a terror in a fight. She's fast, she's ruthless, and she knows exactly where to hit. She's also based on a real person. My wife once punched a hole in a door when she was that age. I met her much later, but I've seen the door.

Sometimes, a smaller size can be a bonus if it's matched with intelligence and speed, as well as the willingness to shrug off pain. As for appearance, different cultures view beauty differently. There are some where a plump woman is much more beautiful than a thin woman, but it seems that most writers, especially in the fantasy art genre, seem to want to portray women in the modern Western mode of borderline skinny. All I'm saying is that I'd like to see a bit more variety.

 

[PaulineMRoss]

Admittedly the beautiful part is more important if I plan romantic or at least amorous sentiments between the male and female leads. I don't fixate so much on beauty when I can't fit such a subplot into my story.

Really? Only the beautiful people fall in love in your books? If there's no love affair down the pike, your characters can be ordinary looking, or downright plain? Honestly, that makes me feel uncomfortable. I don't much care, when I'm reading, whether characters are good looking or not, but I'd like to feel that even the plainest character can find true love eventually.

This is not a criticism, by the way. I'm just curious about writing processes (which is why I hang out with you writer people), and it strikes me as interesting to start with a character's appearance.

 

[Ireth]

Really? Only the beautiful people fall in love in your books? If there's no love affair down the pike, your characters can be ordinary looking, or downright plain? Honestly, that makes me feel uncomfortable. I don't much care, when I'm reading, whether characters are good looking or not, but I'd like to feel that even the plainest character can find true love eventually.

This is not a criticism, by the way. I'm just curious about writing processes (which is why I hang out with you writer people), and it strikes me as interesting to start with a character's appearance.

Maybe it has to do with the characters' perceptions of each other? People who are in love tend not to notice one another's flaws so much, or so they say.

 

[Mindfire]

As an example of this, one of my characters is a twelve-year-old girl with at least a modicum of crazy who is a terror in a fight. She's fast, she's ruthless, and she knows exactly where to hit. She's also based on a real person. My wife once punched a hole in a door when she was that age. I met her much later, but I've seen the door.

Sometimes, a smaller size can be a bonus if it's matched with intelligence and speed, as well as the willingness to shrug off pain. As for appearance, different cultures view beauty differently. There are some where a plump woman is much more beautiful than a thin woman, but it seems that most writers, especially in the fantasy art genre, seem to want to portray women in the modern Western mode of borderline skinny. All I'm saying is that I'd like to see a bit more variety.

+1 to all of this. Also, there's beauty to be found in every body type so long as the person takes care of themselves.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

To be more precise, physical strength is no indicator of who will win a fight. As my Sifu says: All else being equal, speed beats power, and technique beats speed.

Although we're drifting off topic, I think that this could be right and should definitely be the case in fantasy/sci-fi stories...but I struggle with it from a practical IRL perspective.

Based on the actual fights I've seen and been in, I'd say that people will tend to forget most/all technique that they might have learned and the battle quickly degenerates into a combination of grappling plus occasional punching and kicking. This means the victor is generally determined by a mix of size, strength, ability to ignore pain and perhaps most importantly courage or morale. I don't think I've ever seen an actual fight that ended because one person couldn't continue; they ended because one combatant gave up or ran away (or the fight was broken up at which point people uselessly speculate about who "would have won").

I suppose if a person could keep their head and put some bad-ass martial arts moves on someone before "the clinch" occurred, then technique and speed would beat power and size. But I'll admit I've never actually seen that happen outside books and movies. In most cases the verbal sparring ("the monkey dance") in the lead up to the fight results in the combatants being right next to each other and "the clinch" happens right at the beginning.

Like I say, none of this should apply to fantasy stories, where it is necessary that small, fast, skilled heroes & heroines are able to defeat the three-hundred pound muscled minions of the Dark Lord in a fight. Though it does beg the question why the Dark Lord doesn't hire small, skilled people to be his minions...

 

[Penpilot]

The one thing I have noticed is that when guys fight its physical but once the fight is done, its done, it might get bloody but usually that is it. Girls on the other hand don't resort as much to physical aggression but they are very good at using non physical means of aggression and it tends to be drawn out. My points above are simply that physical differences do exist and will impact to some extent how the character responds to problems. Im not saying use such differences to create a character but to keep them in mind.

See, you have your experiences, and I have mine. I play in a co-ed hockey league. The spirit of the league is for fun, but I have had some crazy women half my size spear me in the ribs when I wasn't looking for no other reason than because I was on the other team. I've seen women run over guys like a freight train. One of my team mates tells me she doesn't like playing hockey with women because women are way nastier than men in terms of playing dirty.

I have team mates that are 5'0 and a hundred pounds fearlessly slam in to men twice their size. Sometimes they come out on top others they don't.

All these women I've encountered while playing co-ed hockey come in all shapes, sizes, personality and talent level. Two of the smallest women are the most ferocious and talented players I know, good enough to play in the highest levels of women's hockey, but off the ice, they're girly-girls through and through, girly giggles and all. On the flip side of that, one of the tallest women I know is timid as a bunny on ice, but try telling her that to her face in the boardroom. She'll out "man" any dude in that realm.

Some of the women I've encountered are butch and lesbians, but also know an ex-team mate of mine was a part-time model. My team is full of Moms, and all of them are very attractive. I apologise to the women out there for having to bring looks into this but my impression is if I mention a women being able to compete with a man then a typical response for some is to think she must look like a man.

Any way.

Each of us has our own experiences. Some of them are polar opposites. If that's the case, then if your character falls somewhere in between, who can say it's wrong?

I read through these articles and they don't really address what I'm getting at. I'm not talking about stereotypes such as women are better at math or what ever. I am talking about the differences in how men and women think.

And the articles also talk about how social norms have effects on thinking too rather than just biological norms. Basically it's the old nature vs nurture argument.

I have an acquaintance who also insists that despite my having trained for over a decade in three different martial arts- and him being a complete couch potato- if it ever came to a real fight, of course he would beat me, just because he has a penis.

This probably comes from the fact that his manhood is so large he could club a brontosaurus to death with it, and reseed the population of a galaxy with one manly... umm... burst.

 

[Jabrosky]

Really? Only the beautiful people fall in love in your books? If there's no love affair down the pike, your characters can be ordinary looking, or downright plain? Honestly, that makes me feel uncomfortable. I don't much care, when I'm reading, whether characters are good looking or not, but I'd like to feel that even the plainest character can find true love eventually.

I cannot imagine a relationship progressing beyond platonic friendship without some kind of physical attraction between the parties involved. Of course, what counts as physically attractive varies between people, not to mention whole cultures, so one man's plain Jane is another's hot babe.

I don't really care about whether or not my protagonists are "relatable" (whatever that means). I am an escapist and an idealist after all; I like getting away from the mundane drudgery of everyday existence and experiencing the extraordinary and exotic. What everyone calls relatable, I call boring.

 

[Zero Angel]

I'm interested in what is meant by "case studies." Does anyone have any suggestions as far as that goes?

So case studies, basically: we post an example, say a character bio with certain definitive scenes (such as introduction, anything character changing or character defining or character resolving), and dissect the positives and negatives of the character as it relates to representations of female characters in fantasy. Having multiple viewpoints (hopefully with the more well-known characters) would help us catch things others would miss and see things from different perspectives.

For instance, although I don't have the books on me, I assume we are mostly familiar with Hermione Granger, supporting character in every Harry Potter novel. There will probably be spoilers ahead, but if you are so late to the game that Harry Potter is being spoiled maybe you don't care? Skip ahead to the next quote if you want to read HP and haven't yet.

Originally, her looks are described as being especially unappealing and her bossy attitude and general know-everything-ness is emphasized. Worth noting that not until she tamed her hair and did herself up did Ron really sit up and take notice (although we all knew that he at least fancied her subconsciously). Also worth mentioning that even though she is described several times as being more competent than practically everyone else put together (of the children at least), she usually is more of a "I'll set everything up, get everything ready, clean up after everyone, and help everyone do what they need to do" type of character.

Note though, even though she is portrayed as being bossy originally, why wouldn't she be bossy nearly all the time? She seems to be the only one halfway competent until Order of Phoenix.

Anyway, I've described her a bit slanted. Please feel free to analyze the character and chime in with viewpoints or discussion points.
​

Yes this is true but place a 5 ft man next to a 5 ft women and this difference is sex's is apparent. My little sister is about the same size as me and a black belt. sometimes we play around fighting nothing serious. However I know that if it ever came down to an actual fight I would only have to hit her once. Even though we are the same size and more able to fight I can overpower her. My other sister is taller and bigger than me yet I still know I can take her. I think ignoring such differences is what leads to the super heroin that surpasses the male soldiers.

I disagree, first I know quite a few girls who grew up with brothers and they don't approach conflict the same way as a guy. 8 Myths About Sex Differences talks about aggression. It says males tend to use physical aggression more than females. Im not really interested in the amount but how it is achieved. It also says aggression is more or less the same with regards to the same sex. Here they are simply talking about the level of aggression but not how it is achieved. The one thing I have noticed is that when guys fight its physical but once the fight is done, its done, it might get bloody but usually that is it. Girls on the other hand don't resort as much to physical aggression but they are very good at using non physical means of aggression and it tends to be drawn out. My points above are simply that physical differences do exist and will impact to some extent how the character responds to problems. Im not saying use such differences to create a character but to keep them in mind.

I read through these articles and they don't really address what I'm getting at. I'm not talking about stereotypes such as women are better at math or what ever. I am talking about the differences in how men and women think.

10 Ways Men and Women Communicate Differently : Discovery Channel this explains more about what I was getting at.

my sister was telling me about how her boyfriend cried because of where he was at in his life. We talked about this for a while and I kept telling her my thoughts and advice. Later she grew frustrated and told me the problem was I was a guy and didn't understand the problem. she then told me if she was talking to her girlfriends they would immediately understand that she kept bringing up the fact he was crying bothered her because her rock showed a moment of weakness and didn't know what to do about it. The conversation had nothing to do with the difficulties they were having but how she was feeling about said difficulties, I didn't see this at all. To me, and all the guys I know, I saw it as problem --> solution, I took the conversation at face value. This is what I mean by guys and girls think differently, when girls talk there is more to the conversation than what is being said. And its not just conversation but also their world view. What is important to a guy might not necessarily be important to a girl and vice versa.

So, it seems as though all of your evidence is anecdotal. In other words, although it may be true in your experiences, these are just examples of things, not necessarily how things actually are. I know some smaller women that are quite capable regardless of whom they are fighting or what anatomy said opponent possesses. Similarly, I know many weak men that I would rather not have watching my six.

He *thinks* he can beat his sister in a fight.

I have an acquaintance who also insists that despite my having trained for over a decade in three different martial arts- and him being a complete couch potato- if it ever came to a real fight, of course he would beat me, just because he has a penis.

I hope Ascanius never says this to his sister, because it is horribly condescending, insulting, and invalidating ("No matter how long and how hard you work, it won't ever do you any good- you will always lose"... yes, that's what you would be saying to her, it's one of those things women hear you say even though you didn't actually say it). People who train work their ASSES off, day in and day out, for years, and this is very much a core part of their identity. When you invalidate it/her by saying things like "She has a black belt, but I'd only have to hit her once" there's nothing more hurtful or infuriating you can come up with to say.

And also, the assumption is of very questionable truth. Sorry.

Women who train usually train with larger men (I work with larger men about 97% of my time), and we tailor our training to cope with that situation. We are not just playing patty cake. And a penis is *not* an automatic ticket to winning every physical fight.

There are things that people who don't train just can not comprehend. Please give your sister credit- or at the very least, the benefit of the doubt- for years of incredibly hard work that most people (male *or* female) are not capable of.

Agreed fully. Although it is worth mentioning that frequently the upper level ranks are not necessarily a sign of fighting prowess and can be a sign of technical knowledge and execution. It's possible that his sister is incompetent in spite of training to those levels.

I think *many* people, both guys and girls, assume that they are more capable in "real" fights than they actually are.

 

[Zero Angel]

I cannot imagine a relationship progressing beyond platonic friendship without some kind of physical attraction between the parties involved. Of course, what counts as physically attractive varies between people, not to mention whole cultures, so one man's plain Jane is another's hot babe.

I don't really care about whether or not my protagonists are "relatable" (whatever that means). I am an escapist and an idealist after all; I like getting away from the mundane drudgery of everyday existence and experiencing the extraordinary and exotic. What everyone calls relatable, I call boring.

If what you can't imagine is people being attracted to people you aren't attracted to, then:
I've given this advice to you before. As long as you don't mind being *very* niche, then go ahead and write what you want to write. There are markets out there for what you want to do, or maybe just do it for yourself or publish it anonymously.

 

[Mindfire]

Although we're drifting off topic, I think that this could be right and should definitely be the case in fantasy/sci-fi stories...but I struggle with it from a practical IRL perspective.

Think of it this way. It doesn't matter how strong you are if you're too slow to actually land the punch. Likewise, it doesn't matter how fast you are if you leave holes in your defenses big enough to drive a truck through.

 

[Nebuchadnezzar]

Think of it this way. It doesn't matter how strong you are if you're too slow to actually land the punch. Likewise, it doesn't matter how fast you are if you leave holes in your defenses big enough to drive a truck through.

I guess I hear that, but it seems more applicable to structured "sport" fighting with rules and procedures as opposed to the so-called IRL fight. Boxers bob and weave and duck and keep up their guard because under the rules they can't tackle their opponents and roll around on the ground with them. The IRL fight on the other hand tends to quickly evolve into a ground-based wrestling match with occasional punches and kicks where size and strength dominate over speed and most technique (in my experience anyway).

I did see one IRL fight where a guy used speed and technique to put down someone a fair bit larger. He basically punched his opponent three times in the face while the other guy was still in his "monkey dance" and didn't realize the fight was starting. Game over, that fast. Of course this was in high school and the puncher only served a suspension. Someone does that as an adult in a bar and they're looking at jail time, even if they knew the other guy was going to have a go at them once he worked himself up to it.

 

[Kit]

Although we're drifting off topic, I think that this could be right and should definitely be the case in fantasy/sci-fi stories...but I struggle with it from a practical IRL perspective.

Based on the actual fights I've seen and been in, I'd say that people will tend to forget most/all technique that they might have learned and the battle quickly degenerates into a combination of grappling plus occasional punching and kicking. This means the victor is generally determined by a mix of size, strength, ability to ignore pain and perhaps most importantly courage or morale. I don't think I've ever seen an actual fight that ended because one person couldn't continue; they ended because one combatant gave up or ran away (or the fight was broken up at which point people uselessly speculate about who "would have won").

I suppose if a person could keep their head and put some bad-ass martial arts moves on someone before "the clinch" occurred, then technique and speed would beat power and size. But I'll admit I've never actually seen that happen outside books and movies. In most cases the verbal sparring ("the monkey dance") in the lead up to the fight results in the combatants being right next to each other and "the clinch" happens right at the beginning.

A few of the practical things that people who actually train hard for years learn:

You are much more likely to keep your head and remember technique if you.... um... KNOW any technique. Rednecks fighting in bars and teen hoodlums fighting on the playground do not know any technique. *MOST* people do not know any technique. Because they have not trained. (No, getting into a few drunken fistfights doesn't count. No, watching MMA on YouTube doesn't count. A few months of tai kwon do in the seventh grade counts, but only a little.)

You are much more likely to keep your head and remember technique when you have drilled it until you are literally DREAMING about doing it, over and over. It is called "muscle memory". You try to get to the point where you don't have to think much- you just do it.

You are much more likely to keep your head and remember technique when you spar all the time, and maybe do tournaments too. Most people in today's western society are not used to hitting or choking each other. Most of them are not used to *touching* each other. Just getting in someone's personal space- or having someone get in yours- is uncomfortable. I roll around on the floor grinding against sweaty men every day- some of whose names I don't even know. I'm not going to hesitate if it comes time to put my hands on a mugger.

As far as the fabled "clinch"- many people are surprised to learn that grapping is one of the best systems for a smaller, less muscular person. My striking against a bigger guy- whose arms and legs are longer than mine and thus he can reach me before I can reach him- is inferior to my work in the clinch. Small people can fight in a barrel. The guy with the longer limbs doesn't *want* me pressed right up against him, where I have plenty of room to work, while he's cramped.