Women in fantasy

[Zero Angel]

Phew guys. I don't want Devor locking the thread again. Maybe we should bring this back to, yet again, females in fantasy. Instead of talking how they SHOULD be, let's talk about how we want them to be?

Worth a shot anyway.

 

[Feo Takahari]

What information would be useful to you?

On another site I used to hang out on, an author posted the first meeting between the male lead and the female lead. This scene was supposed to be from the female lead's perspective. It was largely about how sexy the female lead was, coupled with a rather vague implication that the female lead wanted to have sex with the male lead (though without much indication of what the female lead found attractive about the male lead.) This was roundly criticized, because even in what was supposed to be her perspective scene, the female lead was written more in terms of her hotness and sexual availability than in terms of her own desires.

I think what we'd need in order to evaluate your female characters is some sort of excerpt. Or possibly the entire story. Just a description of the characters doesn't show how well they're written.

P.S. I just realized--what if the story's entirely from the perspective of a male character who has a very sexual view of women? I think it's okay if he approaches them sex-first, although there should be at least some hint that he's not a reliable narrator in this regard. (I haven't read it, but I've heard that Scott Pilgrim starts off with Scott viewing Ramona as his semi-literal dream girl, before showing how self-centered he is.)

 

[Ireth]

Phew guys. I don't want Devor locking the thread again. Maybe we should bring this back to, yet again, females in fantasy. Instead of talking how they SHOULD be, let's talk about how we want them to be?

Worth a shot anyway.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the people in this thread want women to be portrayed how they should be portrayed? That would make the two issue one and the same, no?

 

[Mindfire]

On another site I used to hang out on, an author posted the first meeting between the male lead and the female lead. This scene was supposed to be from the female lead's perspective. It was largely about how sexy the female lead was, coupled with a rather vague implication that the female lead wanted to have sex with the male lead (though without much indication of what the female lead found attractive about the male lead.)

Um, my male lead and initial female lead are cousins. Ick.

This was roundly criticized, because even in what was supposed to be her perspective scene, the female lead was written more in terms of her hotness and sexual availability than in terms of her own desires.

I think what we'd need in order to evaluate your female characters is some sort of excerpt. Or possibly the entire story. Just a description of the characters doesn't show how well they're written.

I can post an excerpt of their first meeting if you like. (Within the story. They're cousins, so they've obviously met before.) It's from the male character's POV, but it should give a clue as to how I intend to portray their relationship if I've written it right. Alternatively I could post an excerpt of her first appearance. She actually first appears before the two of them meet IIRC. Or I can give you both. Whichever suits you.

 

[Mindfire]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the people in this thread want women to be portrayed how they should be portrayed? That would make the two issue one and the same, no?

I think he's implying a difference between expressing a personal preference and espousing a universal standard and encouraging the participants of this thread to do the former without attempting the latter.

 

[saellys]

Do be careful what you're arguing here, since you've previously argued against maintaining a character's initial motivation (under circumstances where that motivation is stereotypical.) I'm for more variety in character types, but I don't think a character's initial personality is necessarily better OR worse than her personality in rewrites.

There are some pretty major differences between those statements and this one, and I hope everyone here will have the nuance to appreciate that.

 

[Feo Takahari]

I can post an excerpt of their first meeting if you like. (Within the story. They're cousins, so they've obviously met before.) It's from the male character's POV, but it should give a clue as to how I intend to portray their relationship if I've written it right. Alternatively I could post an excerpt of her first appearance. She actually first appears before the two of them meet IIRC. Or I can give you both. Whichever suits you.

I'm not really interested in criticizing any specific poster's portrayal of female characters--if we're going to talk about what's already done in fantasy, let's talk in terms of people who'll never show up here and complain about what we've said about them.

 

[Steerpike]

John Norman probably won't show up...

 

[Mindfire]

I'm not really interested in criticizing any specific poster's portrayal of female characters--if we're going to talk about what's already done in fantasy, let's talk in terms of people who'll never show up here and complain about what we've said about them.

But then, what does that achieve? Doesn't it to more good to offer your opinion to someone who will at least give it consideration than to discuss the work of someone who will likely never even see your response to it?

John Norman probably won't show up...

Who?

EDIT: *One Google search later* Oh. The Gor novels. Never read them. What about them?

 

[Feo Takahari]

All that needs to be said about Gor.

 

[Mindfire]

All that needs to be said about Gor.

...wtf?
....

 

[Steerpike]

...

...

...wtf?

Not a real excerpt, I think. Gor is basically themed toward submissive, subservient females subject to dominant males.

 

[Feo Takahari]

Not a real excerpt, I think. Gor is basically themed toward submissive, subservient females subject to dominant males.

But it's okay, because "the sheep of Gor graze the plains of Gor to produce the wool of Gor." In other words, it's not our world, and society's too different to be comparable. As we're told over and over.

 

[Mindfire]

But it's okay, because "the sheep of Gor graze the plains of Gor to produce the wool of Gor." In other words, it's not our world, and society's too different to be comparable. As we're told over and over.

Um...lol? I think?

 

[Steerpike]

But it's okay, because "the sheep of Gor graze the plains of Gor to produce the wool of Gor." In other words, it's not our world, and society's too different to be comparable. As we're told over and over.

Except from the statements I've seen of Norman, he thinks that's how our world should be because that is the natural order.

 

[Mindfire]

Except from the statements I've seen of Norman, he thinks that's how our world should be because that is the natural order.

That sheep should graze our fields and produce our wool? I'm down with that. So what's the problem?

Oh, wait... he thinks about women the same way doesn't he?

Yeah, I can't even devil's advocate this guy.

 

[Steerpike]

That sheep should graze our fields and produce our wool? I'm down with that. So what's the problem?

Oh, wait... he thinks about women the same way doesn't he?

Yeah, I can't even devil's advocate this guy.

From Wikipedia:

His fiction places emphasis on living in accordance with a Nietzsche-esque natural order, sponsoring a hierarchy of talent, especially strength. Based on this assumed hierarchy, to analyze gender differences, he contends that woman is thesubmissive natural helper, and figurative slave, of dominant man. His work often takes this observation literally: heroes enslave heroines who, upon being enslaved, revel in the discovery of their natural place. Bondage in the novels and in hisImaginative Sex guide is overtly and completely sexual in nature and while the philosophy presented is unquestionably that of male dominance, the male characters are themselves often temporarily and elaborately enslaved by powerful females. In an interview[SUP][1][/SUP] with Polygraff magazine, Norman stated that he believes that it is obvious that all societies are based on dominance and hierarchy.

 

[Jabrosky]

I consider myself pro-feminist and anti-sexist insofar as I support women having the same rights, freedoms, and responsibilities as men, but as a fantasy artist and writer myself, I like depicting sexy women. I am a young heterosexual male after all. For certain ideologues to accuse me of some kind of horrible misogyny simply because I like to celebrate the beauty of the idealized female form is a personal insult. They are basically telling me I can't draw whatever I want. Now I can accept that sexualizing my heroines might bias my work towards a heterosexual male fanbase, but then I am not obligated to please every single demographic group out there. I create for my own enjoyment, not to cater to the politically correct.

 

[Feo Takahari]

I consider myself pro-feminist and anti-sexist insofar as I support women having the same rights, freedoms, and responsibilities as men, but as a fantasy artist and writer myself, I like depicting sexy women. I am a young heterosexual male after all. For certain ideologues to accuse me of some kind of horrible misogyny simply because I like to celebrate the beauty of the idealized female form is a personal insult. They are basically telling me I can't draw whatever I want. Now I can accept that sexualizing my heroines might bias my work towards a heterosexual male fanbase, but then I am not obligated to please every single demographic group out there. I create for my own enjoyment, not to cater to the politically correct.

You keep talking about these "ideologues". Who on Earth are these people, and what exactly do they say to you? (I've never encountered them--not just on my stories, but anywhere, barring stories that are actually sexist.)

Edit: I still haven't read your stories, but I've noticed there's a certain way you tend to talk about your female protagonists--like they're not so much characters as dolls for you to pose. If that carries over to your stories, and people are pointing that out, that's not a criticism of sexualization, that's a criticism of lack of personality. (Again, I haven't read your stories yet, so I might be completely off base here.)

Edit to the edit: Mindfire, this is actually what I was thinking of when I said I didn't want to get into an argument about the stories of anyone on this board. I'm aware I'm treading on ground that could potentially descend into a flamewar and get this thread locked--that's why I keep editing this post to make it more polite and less confrontational.

 

[Philip Overby]

I'm going to suggest we stay out of the realm of criticizing people's approaches to their own characters. It's a delicate ground to tread on.

That said, I would say that making characters as three-dimensional as possible will avoid any sort of thoughts readers might have about the flatness of their presentation. For instance, if I'm writing a strong, Amazon-type character, I don't want readers (for me personally) only to see her surface level presentation. If she's physically strong, I'd want her to also have some kind of perceived flaw or need for something more. Perhaps she longs for better companionship as the rest of the people she's surrounded by are also physically strong and that's all they care about. Making your characters stand out amongst the crowd will make for an overall more compelling story.

If characters are only presented in one certain way, the reader may not connect with them if there isn't more going on.

I think the key to having women more well-represented in fiction is to give them multiple facets that readers can latch on to. If they are just kind or pretty or bashful or whatever, that's only so much a reader can get from them.