Have you been impacted by the Great Recession?

[Shadoe]

Besides that there's a big difference between "everyone is getting the same amount of money, no matter what they do" and "everyone who earns money pays a percentage of this money to the government which uses it to give less fortunate people enough to survive."

True. Pretending that anything other than "every man for himself" is theft is just plain silly.

First of all, Whiskey Tango Foxtrot has socialism got to do with anything? Why do people always scream "Socialism!" if there's any thought of community in the world? There are plenty of "socialist" organizations in this country and there always have been, and they work wonderfully. We call them fire departments, police, churches, and so forth.

Your example was utter nonsense. If the A and B students were so upset about getting lower grades, why in the world didn't they help the students with the poor grades do better? THAT is the concept behind socialism, not "everybody's actually on their own but gets screwed together." It's also the concept behind the military. And it works very, very well. The only time it doesn't work is when the only ones involved are the greedy and the lazy and both camps point at the other side to lay blame.

You are talking about handouts. Most poeple don't want handouts, they want jobs. They want decent jobs that give them a little self respect and enough to feed their families. We've got a reported 10% unemployment in the US, and the actual number is probably much higher. According to your beliefs, they are all unemployed only because they're too lazy to work, and that being the case, we should let them - and their children - starve to death. That's a repeatedly-discredited myth perpetuated by people who are selfish and greedy and are, as I posted before, looking for an easy victim. The fact is, most of the unemployed in the US want to work. They may not all be the country's best and brightest, but they want to work and will do what work they can. They don't work because there are No Jobs. There is literally nothing they can do to get a job when there are No Jobs.

When I work, I make big money, and I get taxed accordingly. And I give thousands to charity on top of that. I don't begrudge it, because I make big money. I live quite well, and I don't see why I should spit on the homeless vet looking for a handout. It's not a difficult concept to get. I think anyone who makes more than what I make and thinks they shouldn't pay taxes SHOULD move somewhere else. Seriously. G'wan wit ya! I want them to leave the US. Because when they're gone, we can recreate a US without a ruling elite who blame the poor because they don't have even more wealth.

Outsourcing, yes, is our biggest problem. The guy who made a million dollars last year wants to make two million this year and three million the next. So he jacks up his prices and finds cheap labor and materials. The only thing we get out of it is a country less and less able to support itself. We need jobs, and we need them HERE. Get rid of outsourcing by taxing heavily the companies that do it. Tax imports. Make outsourcing unattractive to the greedy and they'll stop doing it. Restart organizations like those from the New Deal that dragged us out of the last depression. There's plenty that needs doing in this country and plenty of people who want something to do - we need to match those groups up, and we'll get the economy going.

The simple fact is and always has been that a society that has a large percentage of very poor fails. A society that has a large middle class succeeds. When there is a huge gap between the wealthy and the poor, the society fails. History proves this over and over and over. Look at countries even now where there is a large middle class and few on the extreme ends, and you will see a healthy, productive society.

 

[Lord Darkstorm]

I still say a look at history would do wonders. Roosevelt is the one who brought in the first enactment of socialism, and why is socialism bad? Because it removes the individual and adds in the whole. When I want to be a part of a community, that is a choice I make, but socialism doesn't give you the choice, you are a part, and subject to it's choices whether you like them or not. America was founded as a republic, which isn't a democracy. As a republic that encourage personal ambition, which included greed, the country rose to the greatest nation on the planet. Strong sense of country and a deep rooted sense of honor. Walk around a mall and listen to the kids today...honor, I doubt they could tell you what it meant, and wouldn't understand it if they looked it up. The entitlement society we have been building is going to fail. Why are there no jobs? Probably because those who hire people are afraid to. The government has accused them of being the evil bad people in the world and aren't paying 'their fair share', and as the class warfare continues, the businesses do what they need to do to survive. The government is the one causing the doubt, because or leaders, who rarely lead, spend all day demonizing one group or another. So why should any business take the risk of going out of business to hire more people when the government might decide to place one more regulation, or a new tax, or flat out just change all the rules making them spend most of what they have to try and stay in business.

Keep believing in the idea that government has all the answers, and when you have one here monitoring every word you type, and censoring what you say, and making sure you are thinking in the appropriate way and well, if they feel you are the right type of person then they might let you write a book, and maybe if they approve of it, you can have it published. I'd rather not live in that world. Tax, ration, tax, control, regulate, control...control. Give them control of everything, and while you might not have the manacles, you will be a slave. And for those of you who think that there isn't a power grab by the non corporations? Look at the unions, and the money they poor into campaigns. Want to talk about greed, I guess most of the news ignored the union attack on a train yard that decided not to use union labor. The damage to the trains and the grain that was spilled out on the ground while the security guards hid in their shack hoping the wire mesh glass held till the police arrived. Fine example of how unions are befitting mankind.

When get finished rebuilding your utopian society where no one rises above anyone else, and there is no reason to better oneself...I have to wonder where the food will come from? Since no one will have to work, who will cook the food that no one grew, or serve it, since serving others is a menial position? Tell you what, write a nice story set in your ideal world...then see if anyone outside of someone like minded would believe it. Outside of another 1984, you might find some believability issues there. I certainly wouldn't believe it, and you might discover that you don't believe it either. If it were true, why are the prisons full? All those people are just misguided? Didn't get a proper education? Weren't given all the things they wanted in life?

I chose to go from poor to well off by working for it. Many others don't...they choose other means, like crime. Or better yet a nice government hand out. Why work if someone else will do it for you?

Why didn't the kids who studied hard help those who didn't...maybe because the ones who didn't felt that they could sit back and let the achievers do it for them. Someone wanted a good grade, so they would work hard for it, and carry the rest along. It's nice to pretend that people are all good and moral and always strive to do the right thing. A good thing to pretend, but unfortunately, the real world is full of people with flaws...like another discussion, and greed, laziness, self centered, cruel, and so many others I'll not bore everyone with the list. When you make everyone the same, those who would try and do better will come down to the level of the rest, because there isn't the same sense of achievement when someone else is riding on you back not doing a thing. Socialism, the form of government that tries to make everyone equal, doesn't work. Every country that has tried it is floundering in debt, because the number of people willing to support those who are quite happy to enjoy the free ride, are too small to support such a system. For that type of system to work you need the government to brainwash, control, and impose a tight control of everyone to get them to do much of anything. You can blame evil capitalists...while you complain there aren't enough jobs...which are created by said same evil capitalists.

Which is it, should we allow people to be individuals and strive to better their own lives? Or must the world be FORCED to support everyone the government says you have to? In one you have jobs, in the other you have a society of freeloaders and stagnation. Try reading more books. Even fiction has more truth in it than most of the news media today.

 

[Shadoe]

Well... I guess I just don't choose to see the world through the red haze of hate. I'm more Dalai Lama than Hitler. I haven't been infected by Faux News and their compatriots - for which I shall light a candle today in devout thanks. But, hey, you have a good time with that.

On the other hand, I have just gotten a really good idea for a new character in my Chronicles of Terriadar series. I've been looking for a new antagonist.

 

[Amanita]

Come on now, don't take this too far please.
Let's agree to disagree and move back to discussing our writing plans. It would be a shame if we wouldn't be able to do that anymore, because we have different opinions about this.
I've only experienced political discussions getting nasty in chemistry forums till now for some reason, but obviously it can happen to fantasy writers as well.

 

[Shadoe]

I used to work for a national computer network, back in the early days of the internet. We called politics one of the "permanent floating flamewars."

 

[Black Dragon]

Let's agree to disagree and move back to discussing our writing plans. It would be a shame if we wouldn't be able to do that anymore, because we have different opinions about this.

I second this. The last page of posts has some pretty sharp jabs, and that's not what we're about here. This site is about community first and foremost.

Let's keep this particular thread focused on how the recession is impacting lives. As for the causes of the recession, let's not go there any further. We don't need a flame war.

 

[Lord Darkstorm]

I do apologize for not biting my tounge like I should have. I'll wonder back to the writing discussions which are far more enjoyable.

 

[Meg the Healer]

Though I'm not sure how much of this is really the recessions fault (and not my own personal spending), but I have felt some of the impact of it as well. As someone who works two jobs, I am still amazed that my pocketbook still manages to cross over into the red at times.

Trying to make ends meet in the US is seemingly more difficult each month - but I have to look on the bright side. One - I still have BOTH jobs (regardless of the fact that I wish I had more money come in from both of them). Two - I still have my home and my pets are still alive and healthy - though I am concerned about the cat. And Third - even though the light at the end of the debt tunnel seems to be in a constant state of being completely shut off - I will have at least paid off one major loan by the end of the year.

As much as I hate to say this - for ME - the recession has been a good thing. It's forced me to look at my money, save more money, and really look at "is this really worth buying right now.

I hate going into the red. But I know that things could be so much worse for me right now, too.

 

[Fnord]

Personally, it has been a windfall for me.

I suddenly feel like an undertaker.

 

[Fnord]

As to the causes of the Recession, it's not any one person or group or political party's fault. It was the fault of government, it was the fault of opportunistic financiers, it was the fault of central bankers, and it was the fault of the consumers. It just all came together in a perfect storm of &^%&.

There were a lot of extra-market elements in play and while I could write an entire book on this (and have written thousands of words about it already), the bottom line is that the system of incentives in the economy was distorted. These were systems created by social engineering policy, they were created by loose monetary policy, they were created by Wall Street magnates with their words in the right ears, and the risk/reward system of capitalism had risk taken out of it and so went the prudence that goes with risk.

It's ugly and it's not going to get better any time soon--there's too much consumer debt, too much government debt (and not just the U.S.) and there is too much uncertainty in the private sector.

 

[Helbrecht]

Right-winger: "GORRAM GOVERNMENT"
Left-winger: "GORRAM BANKS"
Economist: "GORRAM EVERYONE"
[/thread]

. . . *clears throat*

As for the effects of the Recession on my everyday life, I can't find a job, so I'm relying entirely on savings to put me through college. My family are all working more for less and we're struggling to pay the bills. Looking at the bigger picture, I've found the whole thing to have quite a profound effect on my life.

Mind you, asking my grandmother about it, it's been one big downward spiral where we live since the 1970s.

 

[Fnord]

Definitely "GORRAM EVERYONE". And on top of that (*waves scythe around menacingly*), most of the economic indicators are pointing to another recession here real soon, if we're not already swinging into it in the 4th quarter.

 

[The Blue Lotus]

Who has not been effected would prolly make for a shorter list of posters!
I can't think of anyone who has not been hit in some way.
The prices for food have gone up, gas, etc etc. Don't get me started on how horrid I think the GOv is, or for that matter the banks.

I have come to realize that there are two types of people in this country There are the TOO BIG TO FAIL and the TOO SMALL TO CARE ABOUT.

It is so sad.

Before this nightmare I had a serious case of rose colored glasses, While my country was not perfect it was still mine and I belived in it.
Now, To be honest I have thought about moving out of the country.

As former Military, that breaks my heart. But I can not stand to see what we are becoming. =(

 

[Shadoe]

I totally agree! I'm ex-military from a military family and i married into a military family. Mow I'm trying to figure out how I can finagle a move to Australia. I just can's stand watching the death spiral America seems to be involved in. It's just not my America anymore.

 

[Amanita]

I'm afraid that it isn't much better elsewhere. At least not in Europe. I don't know about Australia.
This

There are the TOO BIG TO FAIL and the TOO SMALL TO CARE ABOUT

totally applies here as well.
Lobbying groups decide what's happening in the country in question and the German governemnts do their best to destroy the educational system to create "people who easily adapt to the demands of the market" instead of "people who are able to think for themselves".
So bad, that young people who have to finish school more quickly and aren't allowed to spend as much time at University don't know as much as the ones who came before. But: Today's young people are all lazy and stupid anyway.
So we absolutely need to "import" skilled workers from other countries who of course all want nothing but come to Germany, forget about the home country and pay their taxes here. If they're only speaking English and refuse to learn German, no problem. Their language isn't Turkish or Arabic and they aren't evil Muslims. But never, ever consider accepting immigrants who come in to escape hunger, war, or political/religious persecution. They're useless for the economy and giving them education would cost money. The money for the education of our future workers should be spent by others, please.

Sorry about the rant, but the newspapers are full of things that make me angry at the moment. One of the things I especially hate is the new division between supposedly "clever, dilligent and useful" people who come from India, Japan, China or other Asian countries and those who aren't especially from Africa and Muslim countries.
But if someone calls this "racism" they're politically correction fools who don't understand about reality.

 

[The Blue Lotus]

evil Muslims.
I especially hate is the new division between supposedly "clever, dilligent and useful" people who come from India, Japan, China or other Asian countries and those who aren't especially from Africa and Muslim countries.
But if someone calls this "racism" they're politically correction fools who don't understand about reality.

I am going to have to respectfuly agree to disagree.
My husband is Indian... I am Hindu as well. So that upsets me to hear someone say something like that about Indians.

My brother married a nice lady from Japan, and my little sister is dating a Korean. (she is half Mexican.)
My best friend is Muslim (from Pakistan). So again the first like really irritates me.

There are good people and bad people in every creed and color. The only people who say Muslims are "evil" are the under educated. Perhaps you should try learning more about the religion. It is not unlike any other that you know. At its most basic, it is a peaceful, and loving one. Too bad as with so many other things sick humans have twisted it and made it something it was never meant to be.

So I shall part and drop this matter with these last words; and a quote.

"if someone calls this "racism" they're politically correction fools who don't understand about reality."

Racism is defined as: a belief or doctrine that inherent differences among the various human races determine cultural or individual achievement, usually involving the idea that one's own race is superior and has the right to rule others.

So while no I do not think you are rasist I do belive you are very young and thus have not had enough life experiance as of yet to understand what you are saying, or you are very old and thus unable to look at things in a new light.

You decide which of the two you fit in.
Gods bless always,
~BL~

 

[Fnord]

I'm afraid that it isn't much better elsewhere. At least not in Europe. I don't know about Australia.
This totally applies here as well.
Lobbying groups decide what's happening in the country in question and the German governemnts do their best to destroy the educational system to create "people who easily adapt to the demands of the market" instead of "people who are able to think for themselves".
So bad, that young people who have to finish school more quickly and aren't allowed to spend as much time at University don't know as much as the ones who came before. But: Today's young people are all lazy and stupid anyway.
So we absolutely need to "import" skilled workers from other countries who of course all want nothing but come to Germany, forget about the home country and pay their taxes here. If they're only speaking English and refuse to learn German, no problem. Their language isn't Turkish or Arabic and they aren't evil Muslims. But never, ever consider accepting immigrants who come in to escape hunger, war, or political/religious persecution. They're useless for the economy and giving them education would cost money. The money for the education of our future workers should be spent by others, please.

Sorry about the rant, but the newspapers are full of things that make me angry at the moment. One of the things I especially hate is the new division between supposedly "clever, dilligent and useful" people who come from India, Japan, China or other Asian countries and those who aren't especially from Africa and Muslim countries.
But if someone calls this "racism" they're politically correction fools who don't understand about reality.

Immigration is actually a very good way to add dynamism to the economy. I spoke in Washington DC about the economic virtues of immigration and presented my research on why adopting a much more liberalized immigration policy would be very much in our best interest.

The problem people tend to have exists only in the short-run; people from other countries need a generation or two to fully assimilate and their children tend to better adopt the host language and attain educational levels even beyond that of the lower classes who already live there. The other concern, of course, is the level of "generosity" that comes from social programs in the new country. The more generous those programs are, the more problems can arise. But that's a problem of government policy, not of the immigrants themselves.

 

[Amanita]

My husband is Indian... I am Hindu as well. So that upsets me to hear someone say something like that about Indians.

I'm really sorry if my post sounded as if I were insulting Indians. I didn't mean to do this at all. What I did want to critisize are these generalisations that everyone from one country or a group is a "useful" immigrant while people from other places never are. And the idea that doing everything in English is fine and everyone who wants to use their own language is old-fashioned or stupid. Once again, no criticism against Indian, Japanse, Chinese etc. but against a certain mentality among German politicians and especially, business leaders.

Once again, I'm really sorry for sounding offensive, I really should take better care of my words. This last paragraph was actually supposed to be an ironic depiction of a certain point of view hold by some groups. This was the very point of view I wanted to critisize not my opinion!I should really keep to my decision to stay away from this thread.
If this really sounds that ambigious, I'll delete this part after it has been discussed.

 

[The Blue Lotus]

Ah Not a big deal, There are all types of things and tone does not come across on a screen well so
Not an issue at all.
Have a great day!
~BL~

 

[Amanita]

Yes, this is a problem oft he internet. And now I understand better why things get out of hand here so easily. To me, it seemed obvious that this wasn’t my own opinion but two strangers on an internet forum, it wouldn’t be of course.

Maybe I should give a quick explanation as to what I actually meant to say. The following is by no means the opinion of most Germans but of some members of the so-called "elite."
It’s a tendency among a few German politicians, many business leaders and certain news paper commentators to divide people up into those who are able to benefit the economy and those who don’t. When different nationalities are concerned, this is often decided by the economic situation of the county in question.
Therefore they believe that letting people from successful countries immigrate is good, while letting those from less successful countries in is bad, quickly put. For this they cite cultural and sometimes even genetical reasons.
Some of those commentators even believe that money spent on better education for the children of Muslim immigrants already living in Germany is wasted, because they aren’t able to make something out of it.
These people expect that immigrants from succesfull countries such as China and India should be educated there but later come to Germany and stay there. If they don’t, they’re blamed of only coming to „steal ideas and technology.“

This idea seems egoistic and racist to me, the people who believe it, claim that it has nothing to do with racsim but with „rationally accepting the facts“ At least since 9/11 Muslims are seen as acceptable targets for all kinds of generalising „criticism“.