How do you feel about borrowed names?

[Eeirail]

I have used names Such as Azazel, which is an angels name, but I used it simply because I think it fit it's persona being a beast of fire and all. But in context as just using it because, I do not like, I do not like it with names or races in books and such. So I undertand what you mean almost one-hundred percent.

 

[Androxine Vortex]

I have used names Such as Azazel, which is an angels name, but I used it simply because I think it fit it's persona being a beast of fire and all. But in context as just using it because, I do not like, I do not like it with names or races in books and such. So I undertand what you mean almost one-hundred percent.

Yeah like I can understand if you are writting about a race and call them elves or orcs or dwarves. That doesn't bother me. I just hate borrowing actual names from other stories or mythologies. Sometimes I can tolerate it like if the name you are borrowing is a translation of another word in a different language rather than stealing an actual name to fit your character's personality. Not to jab at your comment but Azazel is another example of an over-used name. I don't know I guess to me it gets old. New characters with same names.

 

[Saigonnus]

There is always the option of taking a classic name like Azazel and mixing it up a bit, change a letter or two, add others.

Zaazel
Arakel
Parzel
Armel

Also consider taking two names and mixing them together as I have done for gaming campaigns many times.

Azazel & Bahamut = Azamut or Bahamel

You get the idea, and at the same time maybe create something more suitable for the characters. I used to have a PINK baby naming book (insert laugh here) but found it exceptionally useful for finding characters names by culture. Many of the demihumans (orcs, dwarves etc) often used names from slavic or native american origins and the regular humans had more traditional names if I couldn't think of something original. Elves often had names reminiscent of irish/welsh/scottish with the exception of surnames (one that comes to mind is Jhovannen Elmach from the Isle of Eronach)

 

[BWFoster78]

I think that I have a philosophical difference with the OP.

I hope that I won't be stoned for heresy for saying this, but I want my fantasy world to be as close as possible to our real one. Most readers are going to assume that the rules of physics, days of the week, etc. are the same unless I tell them otherwise. Unless it's important to my story, I don't feel any reason to make all this new and go into detail about it.

Naming characters with common English names is a part of that. I think it's easier for a reader to identify with Joe than with Aljoads'j.

Another problem I have with making up names:

You've made up your entire world right? Created it from scratch? I suppose then, that your characters aren't really speaking English. The writer is automatically translating their speech. Why isn't he translating their names too? Makes it a lot easier to read.

 

[Saigonnus]

You've made up your entire world right? Created it from scratch? I suppose then, that your characters aren't really speaking English. The writer is automatically translating their speech. Why isn't he translating their names too? Makes it a lot easier to read.

Well, I think you don't give the readers enough credit... but I disagree most heartily with your reason; though I respect your opinion. I think it is mostly because "Joe from the Black Forest" doesn't have the same ring to it as "Aljoads D'Aldren or Aljoads of Aldren) I myself prefer the character to have the local flavor. Maybe the writer IS translating the name to English... maybe Aljoads in English is Alh'Johadnus'reun in the native tongue...

 

[Ireth]

Most of my works either take place in the real world (with or without fantastical creatures such as vampires) or in mythological places such as Faerie. Thus I use names that are perfectly normal (Vincent, Ariel, Dominic) and/or mythological (Madoc Morfryn, Finvarra, Meabh). Admittedly, not all of the mythological names I use correspond to the characters in the myths themselves, with the exception of the two Kings of Faerie, but I don't think too many people will care that much. I haven't written a story with a completely original world in quite a long time, after my last attempt flopped. I might try again, though.

 

[Caged Maiden]

I just want to put in my two cents about translating names. Have you ever watched bilingual people talk and mention someone else? their name is pronounced as their name by the bilingual person. If that doesn't make sense, I'll illustrate.

When I pick up the phone, and realize it's my aunt (Who speaks German) calling for my mother (bilingual in German and English), I quickly switch to German and answer, "Oh Hallo, hier ist Anita (in a German accent, because it's my name).

Then I hand over the phone, and my mom would speak. From then on, when she used someone else's name, it was pronounced in English, not how German people would say the name.

Now I don't know whether that is an etiquette thing, but many times in my life I have watched this exact scene play out with people who speak English names in their various languages. The English-speaking bilingual person has no accent when they pronounce the English name.

So anyways, I don't think it's outside the realm of possibility to use a "foreign/ fantasy" name and expect a reader to translate it.

That being said, I like names I can easily pronounce, and that's not to call anyone stupid, but me personally, I know a lot about names and how they are pronounced in their native languages, but I am not sure most readers would think to do it. I could be wrong.

So in my WIP, I have several names which I'm not sure people will pronounce right, but I'm not sure I care, as long as they like the characters. Here are some:

Rafe (Rayf), Marcello (Mar-chel-lo), Lazaro (Lah-tsar-ro), Zanchi (Tsahn-chi). Like I said, I have my doubts, but don't really care. If they are pronounced in normal English, nothing is lost, they're not hard to read nor do they require any sort of explanation to decode.

I like unusual names, and applaud authors' efforts to include an element of uniqueness. None of the names above are unique, the first is old German and the following are all 16th century Venetian. But, sometimes I think too-common names bespeak unimportant characters, and I want a reader to know who my characters are and give them a unique identity.

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

I'm trying to create a different world, why not have different names.

Because the invented world still resembles ours in a lot of ways. It probably contains humans, families, nations, religious groups, and many other things we see in our world. Just because it's a fictional world doesn't mean it can't be based on real Earth cultures, or use names we're familiar with, and it doesn't mean the author is "lazy" just because they use names that also exist in the real world.

 

[studentofrhythm]

What I often dislike is (as exampled above) you get names like Satan but there is no Christianity in the world.

Like Steerpike's monkey in Gormenghast?

Actually I think that's a great name for a monkey. A lot of wonderful character names in that book.

 

[studentofrhythm]

Just because it's a fictional world doesn't mean it can't be based on real Earth cultures, or use names we're familiar with, and it doesn't mean the author is "lazy" just because they use names that also exist in the real world.

The author is certainly turning away from a task that might be needful sometimes. But such an author can duck charges of laziness as long as there's a big enough group of readers that don't demand or expect authors to understand more about how names and languages work, partly because not enough of the readers understand that much themselves.

I think the least a fantasy author could do is to set out clearly at the outset whether:

*this is a setting where everyone happens to speak English and/or factual Earth languages; or languages very close. Which is fine - very interesting, in fact, because it opens the door for reading in a meta-narrative of convergent evolution throughout parallel universes

or

*the characters in this setting speak languages that are not like ours, and then the author should consider herself as a translator as much as a composer of a story - even if she has very little idea about what her world's language is like. Just knowing whether it has a writing system and what kind should help. And you still could decide to put in factual names, or tweaked variants thereof, as long as you did it with the attitude of translating or calquing. In other words, if this character lived in the United States, he would be named whatever.

Or if this character lived in Turkey or Cambodia, she would have names that English-speaking readers might still object to as being too weird or hard to pronounce. Oh dear.

 

[Saigonnus]

I just want to put in my two cents about translating names. Have you ever watched bilingual people talk and mention someone else? their name is pronounced as their name by the bilingual person. If that doesn't make sense, I'll illustrate.

The same thing happens in Spanish as well. Most proper names (places, people, name brands etc.) are generally pronounced in the native tongue not translated to Spanish. There are a few exceprions that I noticed; like the names of songs, movies or particular products within a company are often translated into Spanish and others like Colgate is spelled the same but pronounced differently. Instead of "Kol-gayt" they pronounce it "Kol-Gah-Teh" but that has been that way since they came to Mexico in the 70s or 80s so it has almost become a custom.

 

[ALB2012]

Fantasy is generally based on a Pseudo -local world. Japanese fantasy is pseudo japan, European fantasy is pseudo Europe as it were.
People have ideas - English/European sounding names envoke certain images- Unless you are Monty Python your enchanter lord is unilkely to be called Tim, or Peter or whatever. He or she will have some strange or weird name- Khazak, Archos, Merlin, Gandalf whatever. Your peasants might have normal names,- Bob, Stefan, Edward, Peter, Thomas- nice solid familiar name.

Rightly or wrongly an image appears with certain names and certain ideas produce images. Often people like what is familiar, even in fantasy.
Example- Bazgog-what does that conjure up? A demon, an orc warrior, a small blonde child with a lollipop?

I use a mix of made up names and "real names" depending on what I like and what fits- I am also rubbish at thinking of names. I try to give the forest elves more unusual made up names which are to some extent regional, the urban elves have a mix or human sounding and elvish names and the humans have more familiar human names- sometimes direct names like Freddy,Simon or Thomas and sometimes oddly spelled versions such as Eadgar. I am really not that concerned that some tavernkeep who appears in one scene hasn't got a complex made up name.

If a reader is focusing so much on names they are missing the story or the story isn't keeping them hooked in what does that say?

 

[Alva]

Well, I must admit I prefer made up names over “real” ones, but on the other hand I do understand the people who find coming up with new (and more or less) unique names troublesome. The thing that matters to me while I read is whether the world in the story feels convincing to me or not. A single clearly identifiable "real" name among a horde of imaginary names leaves me unconvinced (if not otherwise explained). But maybe even more so does a horde of imaginary names that sound like being borrowed from other fantasy or science fiction works. So, although I tend to find the use of real world names and especially the English ones a bit dulling at times, as long as the story is well written I may shut my eyes the best I can.

In any case I must admit names such as "Ezekiel" or "Azazel" really turn me off. They flow nicely on my tongue but they've been used so many times over and in so many different places and contexts. They simply carry too many meanings to me, perhaps. Without any other reason than their look or sound I wouldn't end up using them as they are.

People have ideas - English/European sounding names envoke certain images- Unless you are Monty Python your enchanter lord is unilkely to be called Tim, or Peter or whatever. He or she will have some strange or weird name- Khazak, Archos, Merlin, Gandalf whatever. Your peasants might have normal names,- Bob, Stefan, Edward, Peter, Thomas- nice solid familiar name.

Rightly or wrongly an image appears with certain names and certain ideas produce images. Often people like what is familiar, even in fantasy.
Example- Bazgog-what does that conjure up? A demon, an orc warrior, a small blonde child with a lollipop?

Hrrm. "Normal" is a difficult term. Those names may be familiar to English speaking world, but for instance I am from Finland. English isn't my native language even though I've studied it for years and use it on a daily basis. I'm saying that the catch phrase "normal, easy and familiar" lacks some of its point. If the story isn't situated in the English speaking world, why to attempt to reason the use of English names? Simple names such as "Bob" may do depending on the context (although I'd be doubting) for they could be abbreviations(?) But what about more complex names like "Nathaniel"?

When I was learning to read (in my native language) I read some books with a character named "George". “George” sounded like a fantasy name to me at that time and to tell the truth, I had no faintest idea how to pronounce it as I had not studied a single word of English by then. It was like a fantasy name to me but it was part of the culture of the book so I gladly accepted it. Actually it felt intriguing to me and a bit fantastical, even though the book itself wasn’t even a work of fantasy.

(And by the way, concerning on translating foreign names. Some old English names may be quite easily translated into Finnish. For instance "George" in Finnish could be translated into "Yrjö" granted by the old tradition. Now I'm asking: do they convey the same meaning? Because to me the simple answer is as follows: not at all. They sound different and they refer far too different cultural contexts to be truly interchangeable. If somebody called (pardon me my real life examples) George Bush by names such as “Yrjö Pensas” it wouldn't be considered politically correct even though, seemingly, his name can be translated into fluent Finnish language. Into foreign language. Usually only in the case of certain historical characters such as English monarchs like "George VI" the tradition is still in use. One can even find Wikipedia articles on "Yrjö III", "Yrjö V" and "Yrjö VI".)

 

[Alva]

And I forgot, about the "Bazgog" ALB2012 mentioned above. I don't really like "Bazgog" as a word, the immediate feeling it gives me is that it carries no meaning, no history. It sounds like a made up name as it is, lacking its context.

Part of the reason to come up with new names is that the beholder of the name is given an opportunity to define the name. Give it a meaning. As long as the character is truly him/her/itself and full, it doesn't matter what the initial impression on the name is. More than the name itself and the problem whether the name defines the carrier properly or not, I'd question who gave him/her/it that name. His/her parents, friends, boss, colleagues, s/he him/herself perhaps? Linguistics is one matter but words belong to the people who use them and who have the history of using them. The name can mean anything but the important and interesting part is the relationship between the person and the name.

 

[Saigonnus]

"Though he is old enough at nine winters to know he hates his name; Bazgog dismisses it as he goes about his daily chores. His father's name had been Bazgog as well, some vague reference to a great leader from an earlier time; before the time of troubles and he'd been given that name as a way of honoring the man that had served his lord faithfully; had died honoring his lord in fact, leaving him without a father."

I personally don't like the name Bazgog either, seems too contrived in this instance but ANY name can be given history within a story to make it believable and doesn't have to have that "real world" history at all. I do think the best characters in literature (Rand Al'Thor, Aragorn son of Arathorn, Drizzt Do'Urden) have names that fit them or perhaps the name came first and the story written about them but whatever the case may be, most likely alot of thought went into the names.

 

[Alva]

ANY name can be given history within a story to make it believable and doesn't have to have that "real world" history at all.

I agree. I hope I wasn't being too vague, but that was my point as well. Any name can be given a history and a meaning. Even in real life, not only in fiction or fantasy, although a name regarded as typical in given culture usually imply more established impressions to the natives than some foreign or made up names. (Not always a positive thing.)

To me, it is the character that matters. The name comes third (although a cluster of names fighting against my tastes may turn my attention to some other book on my reading list. Or even to a different writer...) The second on the list comes the flow of the story. An out of place name left unexplained within any given story has the potential of breaking the delicate illusion of credibility. But well, it all depends on the story and how it’s being told.

I do think the best characters in literature (Rand Al'Thor, Aragorn son of Arathorn, Drizzt Do'Urden) have names that fit them or perhaps the name came first and the story written about them but whatever the case may be, most likely alot of thought went into the names.

Well, I think we share different likes in names. "Drizzt Do'Urden" turns me off, to be honest, although I know people who adore the character in question. I hope you don’t get me wrong. In Tolkien's case I liked the sound of names such as "Samvais Gamgi" or even “Frodo” (although I disliked Frodo’s character). “Aragorn” was nice, but then I’ve seen so many writers use a similar pattern of naming that it has lost some of its original glory.

My favourite name giver so far is Le Guin. I’ve loved her books and characters and, yes, names for years now. Reading her books is painful, though. Every once I a while I tend to get this nearly irresistible urge to steal some of her words.

 

[Caged Maiden]

also regarding naming things, euphonic sounds are important. When you select harsh sounds like Bazgog, you can use it to imply a harsher character. Now I'm not expert, and certainly there exceptions to that (the word syphilis comes to mind) where a perfectly pleasant sounding name is given to something unpleasant, but in most stories I've read, the antagonist has a name using "harsher" letter sounds.

 

[studentofrhythm]

I want to read more about our young friend Bazgog.

I just googled "Bazgog" and found out there's a Bazgo village and Buddhist monastery in Kashmir, and a Nimo Bazgo Power Project on the Indus river. Not an exact match, but it supports Alva's point (at least as I understand it). If there's a good reason behind the name that you can show in a convincing manner, you have every right to expect your readers to put up with all manner of violations of their native phonotactics or phonoaesthetics.

Maiden, euphony is arbitrary. What speakers of one language find harsh sounding others don't. I remember how surprised I was when I found out that Hebrew has guttural sounds. How could that be: the holy language with harsh sounds?

This is one thing where I think it's too bad that by staying in our comfort zone we Anglo-American readers and writers perpetuate narrow ethnocentric thinking.

 

[gavintonks]

Everyone is entitled to an opinion of course and if it float your boat good for you, but it is also naive to take it to the point of prejudice and then say it is a bad thing to do for every writer. Fantasy is based on Lore and mythology which is thousands of years old, now one person feels he must spend hours changing 2 letters I honestly do not think readers care and a good or brilliant story. I for one usually do not even bother to read names as half of them are unpronounceable and I do not buy a book for lessons in name pronunciation, and then keep it in order to find names to call my animals.

Writing a good or brilliant story is the objective all these things are just a nice to have, but subjectively it is in the hands of the author to decide. The other issue of course is who is buying if 20 000 readers who wish buy the book say otherwise then I would listen.

Internet is about information and people like to google and check things so your new names come up with a blank instead of a history that adds layers to your book and the mythology behind it. I would rate the names about 150th in the list of prioritizes in a good well written story

 

[Alva]

If there's a good reason behind the name that you can show in a convincing manner, you have every right to expect your readers to put up with all manner of violations of their native phonotactics or phonoaesthetics.

Yes. That is what I mean. Thank you for the term "native phonoaesthetics", by the way. : )

Internet is about information and people like to google and check things so your new names come up with a blank instead of a history that adds layers to your book and the mythology behind it.

As you said, everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect yours. After all, I even don’t know what kind of fantasy you write! Nonetheless, there are many different readers (and writers). Without any prior positive feedback on a work of fiction, the language does matter a great deal to me. If the surroundings in the book support the names, there is no problem. If the story is present in an alternative history or takes place in Middle Ages/ renaissance/ future (of Earth) etc., I’d be greatly surprised if there weren’t any already clearly identifiable existing names or variations of them.

Only the presupposition that a name doesn’t suggest any history if it is not familiar to the audience, is odd one to me, personally. I enjoy reading well written fantasy and whenever the fantasy is truly well written, it gives me this feeling of great deal of depth - partly in the form of existing but largely unknown history of its own. In many fantasy stories the reader is but a foreigner, an immigrant, to the world and the cultures there. Why would an immigrant be expecting/expected to understand any deeper meanings concerning on the new world immediately, or even after having Googled (our) Internet for help? Shouldn't such information be attained through learning and time = in this case, through reading.

I would rate the names about 150th in the list of prioritizes in a good well written story

I understand your point but don’t see why it should have to be that way. Names are details, yes, but details add to the feeling of refinement and believability. Often names also work as a meaningful link between our “real” world and the world of the characters. The phonotactics and phonoaesthetics used (thank you @studentofrhythm) usually are there to tell something about the culture the character lives in or at least has been living in:

How does their language sound (or possibly look, even when written with clumsy Latin alphabets)? Do they prefer some specific nickname over the given one and why? If the name is for instance translated into familiar noun or adjective, does the meaning somehow contradict, highlight or emphasize with the personality of the character? Names can be used as hints of larger structures (linguistical/social/historical etc.).

It is the writer’s job to grant the name with a history and hidden meanings of its own. This said I emphasize that it depends on the story and the writer what kinds of names they prefer to use.

(And also point out that the tastes of the readers and writers are varied, and variation is a positive thing.)