Actual healthy food pyramid

[Prince of Spires]

And we can in fact confirm this even today. Look at Sardinian and Okinawan traditional diet: vegetables, pork, cheese and fish, with next to no grains.

Issue actually is bread. Grain is bad.

This is just wrong.

To quote wikipedia on the Okinawan diet: "As proportions of total caloric intake, foods in the traditional Okinawa diet included ... rice (12%), other grains (7%)". So 19% of their caloric intake is grain related (though I've also seen sites giving a higher % of grains in their diet).

As for the Sardinian diet, they don't have a wikipedia page, but consensus seems to be that 50+% of their diet consists of whole grains in the form of bread, rice, or pasta.

We've been eating grain in one form or another for 12.000+ years. We're pretty well adapted to them.

 

[Jackarandajam]

The three issues of health are eating better, eating less, and exercising more. All of these issues are subject to extreme individualization, but to some extent true for everyone. Trying to separate these aspects of health into three different conversations doesn't work.

Being at a healthy weight or an average bmi is only one aspect of health. One can hyperfocus on any one of these three aspects and achieve that, whether its a fringe diet hyperfocused on micronutrients and pseudoscience, or crossfit.
Analyzing diets isn't much help unless the activity levels of the associated lifestyle is also taken into consideration. If the Sardinians can sit around playing video games on a diet consisting of 50% bread and stay healthy, I'll eat my jeans.

The most common problem with bread is eating alot of it and not burning it off.

The first food pyramid is helpful. The second is wildly convoluted and includes too many things that are inarguably bad for humans, period. Canola oil?!? Refined breads?!? Where are the cheetos and Swiss rolls?
According to that pyramid, whole grain bread fried in corn oil should be more of a dietary staple than fish. Who funded that research, Frito-Lays?

 

[Devor]

The second is wildly convoluted and includes too many things that are inarguably bad for humans, period. Canola oil?!? Refined breads?!? Where are the cheetos and Swiss rolls?
According to that pyramid, whole grain bread fried in corn oil should be more of a dietary staple than fish. Who funded that research, Frito-Lays?

Cheetos are a refined grain mixed with cheese, and swiss rolls are a refined grain mixed with sugar. It's there, in the top of the pyramid, because you have to acknowledge that people eat crap sometimes, and a little of it isn't all that bad.

Whole wheat fried in corn oil sounds good to me, but that's more oil than the pyramid suggests: The oil box is pretty small there, while the fish box is just as large as the vegetable, whole grain, and legumes boxes.

 

[Jackarandajam]

Cheetos are a refined grain mixed with cheese, and swiss rolls are a refined grain mixed with sugar. It's there, in the top of the pyramid, because you have to acknowledge that people eat crap sometimes, and a little of it isn't all that bad.

Whole wheat fried in corn oil sounds good to me, but that's more oil than the pyramid suggests: The oil box is pretty small there, while the fish box is just as large as the vegetable, whole grain, and legumes boxes.

What people want to eat and what people should eat are supposed to be two different conversations. If something has literally zero nutritional value, maybe it no go on pyramid.
I'm sure this pyramid makes alot of people feel better about themselves, as I'm pretty sure that was its primary function.

If we're talking about what people have been eating for thousands of years, like bread, maybe putting butter and red meat on the same level as soda and junk food JUST MIGHT suggest a pyramid-building motive other than what is actually good for people.

For instance, it looks like the bottled water industry didn't cough up the cash.
Am I crazy, or did milk and soda make the pyramid and not water?

 

[Devor]

What people want to eat and what people should eat are supposed to be two different conversations.

People should eat a little of what they like, even if it's unhealthy, because you can't suck all the joy out of your diet and expect people to stick with it. Besides which, putting it on the pyramid puts its place in perspective, and follows the patterns set by the original food pyramid.

If we're talking about what people have been eating for thousands of years, like bread, maybe putting butter and red meat on the same level as soda and junk food JUST MIGHT suggest a pyramid-building motive other than what is actually good for people.

Sorry, but red meat and butter are factually bad for you.

For instance, it looks like the bottled water industry didn't cough up the cash.
Am I crazy, or did milk and soda make the pyramid and not water?

I did notice that water was missing, and I thought that was weird. But there's no need to conspiratorialize it.

 

[Jackarandajam]

People should eat a little of what they like, even if it's unhealthy, because you can't suck all the joy out of your diet and expect people to stick with it. Besides which, putting it on the pyramid puts its place in perspective, and follows the patterns set by the original food pyramid.




Sorry, but red meat and butter are factually bad for you.




I did notice that water was missing, and I thought that was weird. But there's no need to conspiratorialize it.

Food science has factually evolved since 1983, but factually I'm not a doctor so my opinions are just that. If it works for you, good on ya!

 

[pmmg]

Harvard can go suck eggs....literally.

I've had three people quote my post, and not one included the main point: ... And it is making small changes every few months over time. That's what works for real people who have to struggle with cooking and shopping and exhaustion and eating out and families and work and responsibilities and life issues.

Even this requires dedication and ongoing focus on the target, which most people simply wont have.

Like every diet, routine, or effort, most will fail.

Those things that are the struggle, cooking, shopping, exhaustion, eating out, families, work, responsibilities, and life issues... don't go away because we wanted them to. And the pressures that got us into our bad diet and lifestyle in the first place, will work invisibly to push us back into them as we go. Changing, even in small ways, is still a very hard task, and takes on elements more pervasive and monumental than simply, I'll stop eating that, or drinking that in small increments. (The number of times I've given up Caffeine and then Sugar )

The fact is, regardless of diet or plan, 80-90% will fail over time, regain their weight, and often become heavier after an initial period of success.

I vote we petition the Gods to make sugar good for us, and contribute to weight loss, and then everything will be fine


And while I did not quote this, I thought I addressed it when I said, you were right. Human nature will cause most diets to fail.

 

[pmmg]

Food science has factually evolved since 1983, but factually I'm not a doctor so my opinions are just that. If it works for you, good on ya!

The Food industry has also evolved a lot since 1983. They have learned just how much sugar and fat to include in just about everything to keep us addicted, and wanting another. Addiction makes knowledge that its bad not matter. Its a tough nut to crack.

Since most of us live in a sedentary way, and in a world of high sugar... you all have my pity.

 

[Devor]

Food science has factually evolved since 1983, but factually I'm not a doctor so my opinions are just that. If it works for you, good on ya!

I mean, the connection between red meat and butter to heart disease is pretty well backed by evidence, and heart disease is the number one killer. That's not dated science at all.

But yeah, let's take the carb junk foods off the list, but hide the meaty junk foods as "meat," and call it healthy. Then, the handful of people who follow our diet strictly can be healthy, but the majority of people who will actually try but fail the diet will eats lots of junk meat in addition to their cheating junk foods, and be worse off. But we'll still say it's their fault for failing, and not our fault for pushing shit science.

Because....

Harvard can go suck eggs....literally.

... while the totally credible "New Evolution Diet" is what really makes the money.

 

[pmmg]

Here's a secret...they all make money.

 

[Aldarion]

This is just wrong.

To quote wikipedia on the Okinawan diet: "As proportions of total caloric intake, foods in the traditional Okinawa diet included ... rice (12%), other grains (7%)". So 19% of their caloric intake is grain related (though I've also seen sites giving a higher % of grains in their diet).

As for the Sardinian diet, they don't have a wikipedia page, but consensus seems to be that 50+% of their diet consists of whole grains in the form of bread, rice, or pasta.

We've been eating grain in one form or another for 12.000+ years. We're pretty well adapted to them.

You really need to learn how to do research and find at least somewhat reliable sources. Wikipedia is basically lies, damn lies and bloody damn lies. It is less reliable for research than "trust me, bro".

Speaking of, this is what actual Okinawans say about their diet:
https://www.reddit.com/r/okinawa/comments/ywoyij

I am from Okinawa and half my family is native Okinawain. Depends on what part of the island that people are from . Itoman was mainly a fishing village before the war as was Okuma and the diet was heavy on seafood but the pork was a huge thing and still is. It seems that the more inland and farther north you go then pork is more common. They joke that they eat every part of the pig except for the " oink". Last time I visited we had pork at every meal. They do eat a lot of pork but it's only a few ounces per serving. Went to a specialty restaurant just outside of Okuma , in the north , that only servers pork dishes. The owners raise their own pigs. The dish that I got was a huge bowl of stir fried veggies with a little bit of pork all topped with a huge pile of bean sprouts. So, imho and experience , the diet is very heavy on veg and light on meat.

Agu pork is at the root of Okinawan food culture/Okinawa Island Guide

www.oki-islandguide.com

Okinawa being an island, you would be forgiven to think that the traditional staple food here is fish or seafood, but you would be wrong. Although people eat plenty of fish and seafood these days, traditional Okinawan cuisine is built around pork. There's even a saying that "Okinawan people eat everything related to pork except its oink!"

Okinawa, Hawaii reflect on postwar relief efforts, reaffirming spirit of Yuimaaru

URUMA CITY, OKINAWA, Japan - Okinawa and Hawaii commemorate the postwar humanitarian effort that took place 70 years ago.

www.dvidshub.net

Okinawa was a heavy porcine cultured island before World War II.

The Battle of Okinawa changed that.

Prewar Okinawa had more than 100,000 pigs. However, after the Battle of Okinawa, hog population decreased immensely bringing the number to about 2,000, according to government data. With the postwar relief effort from Hawaii, Okinawa was able to rebuild its domestic pig population.

Okinawan food revolves around pork, making pig their cultural delicacy. Every part of this staple meat is used in Okinawan cuisine.

Do the Okinawan's hold the secret to longevity for Singaporeans?

After spending 10 days in Okinawa, doing some "boots on the ground" research, it appears that their diet in lifestyle is, in reality, quite different than that purported by the Western media. So what are the secrets to Okinawan longevity and how can Singaporean's benefit from this knowledge?

www.levitise.com.sg

When the Okinawans were first studied by the West, in early 2000s, it was purported that the Okinawan diet mainly consisted of 67% sweet potatoes, 31% other veggies and 2% meat/fish. However in my experience over the last two weeks I saw very little sweet potatoes consumed and in fact the most common ingredient was pork – in every main meal including snacks. This runs pretty contrary to what what I'd read by Western journalists and I’ve been talking about this on social media this week. In reality it appears that, the answer to what they really consumed lies somewhere in between.

The Lie about the Long Lived Japanese People

What you've heard about the Okinawan diet is mostly bullshit

josepheverettwil.substack.com

74 years later in 2019, a BBC article came out titled A high-carb diet may explain why Okinawans live so long. The article was based on a 2016 study that explained that various experiments found a low protein high carb diet to make lab animals live longer. They claim the Okinawans likely lived so long because the carbohydrate content of their diet was 10 times the protein content, which is a remarkably similar ratio to that of the long-living lab animals. They call this 10:1 carbs to protein ratio the ‘Okinawan ratio.’

As someone who has been to many Okinawan restaurants in Tokyo as well as restaurants in Okinawa that offer up all sorts of pork dishes including pig feet and pig ears, this characterization of the diet didn’t make sense to me.

Here’s the thing - those researchers deduced the composition of the Okinawan diet based on a single snapshot in time - a data point from 1949. This was only 4 years after the war, which left Okinawans with barely anything to eat except sweet potatoes.

So here’s the thing about the Okinawan centenarians - it’s very doubtful that their diet throughout their life revolved around sweet potatoes except for the few years right after the war when they were still struggling to get enough to eat. As the Okinawan prefectural website says: “Okinawan food begins and ends with pork.” Go to any Okinawan restaurant and it will be filled with pork dishes, including things like pig ears and pig feet.

 

[Aldarion]

CONTINUED FROM ABOVE:

And Shepherds, who are the actually long lived Sardinians, are eating far more meat and fat than the average population (said population being, unsurprisingly, averagely long-lived):

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Part 3: Live Like a Sardinian: The Key to Longevity : Jenn Campus Author

The Sardinian diet has some variables that don’t fit in with common ideas about the Mediterranean Diet, or the Blue Zones, and their health benefits.

jenncampusauthor.com

The focus of copious “Blue Zones” articles and books have examined the Sardinian diet, and they tout pecorino cheese, goat milk, cannonau wine, whole grains, and fruits and vegetables as the reasons the diet is so healthy, and why the people live longer.

All of these products are indeed wonderful, and certainly a healthy part of the Sardinian diet. However, there are several other important staples of the Sardinian diet absolutely missing from the conversation, ingredients such as honey, mirto, bottarga, pork, shellfish, game meats, and of course the ever-present pasta, to name a few. These products are just as important to the diet and as delicious as the others with their own health benefits. So why are they not on the list?

Sardinians call for formal recognition of diet

Sardinians, renowned for a propensity to live to 100 and beyond, want formal recognition for the island's unique diet.

www.telegraph.co.uk

Sardinians insist the secret to a long life can be found in their traditional diet of lamb, roast piglet, milk and cheese, including the notoriously pungent "casu marzu" sheep's milk cheese, which is eaten when it is crawling with maggots.
Sugar and sugary foods are eaten sparingly, with desserts and pastries reserved for saints' days and festivals like Christmas.
Sardinians eat less carbohydrate-heavy pasta than their counterparts on the mainland of Italy and their diet is particularly rich in proteins derived from milk and cheese.
The tipple of choice is also different to the mainland: "Vino Cannonau" is a robust red wine which is particularly beneficial to health.

https://www.reddit.com/r/nutrition/comments/19f87mi

I just want to share this after I read some people praising plant-based in the Greger vs Keto post.

I'll start by saying I'm not keto, carnivore not anything. I love veggies and fruits. I also eat meat and fish.

I'm Italian and I'm familiar with two of the zones where people are thought to live over a 100 years and healthy (centenarians).

In Nuoro, Sardinia (Italy) as well as in Vilcabamba, Ecuador and Okinawa... Well people eat a lot of pork, fish and meat in general.

In Italy and Ecuador they also drink alcohol daily (not too much) and consume a good amount of cheese. I don't know about Okinawa.

What you can observe in all these places is good weather and a flicking CHILL life. People don't stress over a mortgage or getting the latest iphone or getting a promotion. They enjoy the sun, appreciate food, smoke a few cigarettes and build meaningful relationships.

Male longevity in Sardinia, a review of historical sources supporting a causal link with dietary factors - European Journal of Clinical Nutrition , https://www.reddit.com/r/ScientificNutrition/comments/o1wtwu

A diet high in animal proteins has been considered to be harmful until now,40 as it may increase the incidence of CV disease41 and some types of cancers,42 as well as the overall mortality risk. In addition, regimes implying moderate or low intake of animal proteins have been described in other longevity areas such as Loma Linda (USA),43 which favors a vegetarian diet, Okinawa,44 Ikaria45 and Nicoya.46 We found that among Sardinian highlanders, the generations that were in their old age during NT experienced an increased capability for the acquisition of animal proteins, which might have contributed to delaying the onset of sarcopenia and osteopenia.47 These findings are consistent with the results of NHANES III study recently reported by Levine et al.48 showing that higher protein intake is associated with significantly increased risks of mortality only among people aged 50–65 years, whereas this effect is no longer observed among adults over the age of 65 years.

With regard to fermented foods, bread has for long formed a part of the staple diet of the Sardinian population, and its daily consumption before NT could have exceeded 500 g (Table 2). The potential proinflammatory effect of this high-carbohydrate diet was likely counterweighted by the intense physical activity of the majority of subjects, especially the ones involved in long-distance transhumance. Traditionally, bread was prepared from whole grains with ‘homemade’ microbial starters containing Lactobacilli. This type of traditional bread had chemical and physical characteristics that were rather different from bread bought from bakeries, where leavening is carried out with baker's yeast. ***We have demonstrated that this type of bread is able to reduce postprandial glucose and insulin blood levels by 25%, thereby being potentially able to preserve the function of pancreatic insulin-secreting cells and prevent obesity and diabetes.***52 However, in the past 40 years, nearly everywhere in Sardinia, even in the LBZ, sourdough bread was replaced with bread leavened with baker's yeast containing Saccharomyces cerevisiae, the nutritional value of which is inferior. As already mentioned, in Sardinia, grain farming was traditionally accompanied by a significant production of barley, more suitable for the land,53 which continued to be sown, especially in marginal mountain lands, even when in the rest of Sardinia its production had already decreased. Barley bread has a lower glycemic index and reduces cardiovascular disease risk.5

As for dairy products, in the LBZ, they were mostly from sheep and goats rather than cows, and included lactic acid-fermented varieties such as ‘casu ajedu’. Compared with the latter, goat's milk has a higher nutritional value55 and is more similar to human milk. Because of their reduced size and wider surface, fat globules of goat's milk are more easily digested by intestinal lipases; therefore, a diet based on goat's milk can improve lipid metabolism, especially by decreasing triglycerides. Owing to an increased biliary secretion of cholesterol, and its mobilization from deposits, goat's milk shows a hypocholesterolemic effect56 and may protect against cardiovascular disease. Goat's milk also has a high level of short- and medium-chain saturated fatty acids, such as butyric (C4:0), caproic (C6:0), caprylic (C8:0) and capric (C10:0), which are protective in regard to colon carcinogenesis.57, 58 The high content of carnitine in goat milk also permits optimum utilization of fatty acids into mitochondria, thereby limiting the availability of substrates for lipid peroxidation and ultimately improving the overall cell metabolism.59, 60

Sardinian Centenarian Diet: the Italy's Island secret diet • PerfectSardinia

The Sardinian Centenarians Diet: what they eat and drink in the only Italian Blue Zone where people live a long and healthy life.

www.perfectsardinia.com

The diet of the centenarians of Sardinia is rich in proteins and fats. In particular, compared to the classic Mediterranean Diet it is lower in carbohydrates: only 40% instead of 60% of the Mediterranean.

Each of their meals is composed on average of 70% of vegetables (of which only 20% is fruit because it contains a lot of sugars) and 30% of lean proteins.

So yeah, what you wrote here is a bunch of lies. Not your fault, but be wary of trusting research you cannot source from, well, source.

Just.... no.

Just... yes. See above.

Meat is healthy. But that doesn't mean that all meat is healthy. Reason why "red meat" has such a bad rep is because most of the red meat eaten today is in the form of pancetta, proscuitto, sausages, salami, and other types of highly processed meat. Of course such meat will be bad for you! Highly processed anything is bad, so why would meat be an exception?

EDIT:

I mean, the connection between red meat and butter to heart disease is pretty well backed by evidence, and heart disease is the number one killer. That's not dated science at all.

Yeah, it isn't. Butter is actually healthy for heart so long as it is eaten in moderation.

Is Butter Bad for You, or Good?

A lot of research has been conducted in recent years evaluating the potential health effects of butter. This article takes a closer look at butter and whether it’s good or bad for your health.

www.healthline.com

And I also have a friend who regularly fries his eggs on butter, and he's healthy as an ox. Far healthier than myself, certainly... I suspect largely because he never bothered even trying to follow mainstream dietary advice.

 

[pmmg]

But yeah, let's take the carb junk foods off the list, but hide the meaty junk foods as "meat," and call it healthy. Then, the handful of people who follow our diet strictly can be healthy, but the majority of people who will actually try but fail the diet will eats lots of junk meat in addition to their cheating junk foods, and be worse off. But we'll still say it's their fault for failing, and not our fault for pushing shit science.

Well, it seems you have a dog in this fight, and I dont really care about food pyramids.

But this is a false dichotomy. Good here, bad there... Those who advocate for low carb also call many meats unhealthy and routinely say it is not a license to eat high fat, low value junk. And the majority of people fail at all diets. There is nothing special about the ones who fail at low carb ones. Few people on any diet remain dedicated enough to keep it for the long term.

Many of those health sites that you might point to as 'scientific' have positive things to say about other diets, including low carb ones, than the typical food pyramid.

I'll let others fight about diet I am back to writing my characters with their poor diets.

 

[Jackarandajam]

But yeah, let's take the carb junk foods off the list, but hide the meaty junk foods as "meat," and call it healthy. Then, the handful of people who follow our diet strictly can be healthy, but the majority of people who will actually try but fail the diet will eats lots of junk meat in addition to their cheating junk foods, and be worse off. But we'll still say it's their fault for failing, and not our fault for pushing shit science.

By your own admission, it's the people who don't follow the diet, not the science, that results in health problems.
Talking about bread this much is making my mouth water for brioche, btw.
Of course meat isn't junk food, unless it's meat that's been turned into junk food by processing and mixing with chemicals, preservatives, and rocking levels of sodium.
Don't get mad at me, get mad at thousands of years of human history that didn't include soda, craving carbs, or the epidemic of diet related problems facing the modern world.

Edit: ...that didn't include processed meats either, obv.

 

[pmmg]

So....right now, my work has ordered a food truck, and 3 people have stuck their head in my door saying...you going down for the food?

I go back to, other people are the hardest part about diets. They just pressure you so much to eat like them.

 

[Devor]

All of those Okinawan quotes refer to restaurants, like eight times. Restaurants aren't very indicative of what people eat every day in their homes.

I don't know what the Sardinian quotes are about. They mention whole grains frequently.

But this is a false dichotomy. Good here, bad there... Those who advocate for low carb also call many meats unhealthy and routinely say it is not a license to eat high fat, low value junk. And the majority of people fail at all diets. There is nothing special about the ones who fail at low carb ones. Few people on any diet remain dedicated enough to keep it for the long term.

As I said in my first post, any diet you can actually follow will improve your health.

But, this is what you're missing:

1) Diets that are implemented slowly over time with small changes here and there have a much higher rate of success.

2) Diets which encourage small amounts of junk food have a much higher rate of success.

3) Diets which mask their junk food (i.e., red meat and butter, even when unprocessed) will end up hurting many of the people who attempt them.

 

[Aldarion]

All of those Okinawan quotes refer to restaurants, like eight times. Restaurants aren't very indicative of what people eat every day in their homes.

I don't know what the Sardinian quotes are about. They mention whole grains frequently.

I would ask you to actually read the articles before commenting.

They refer to restaurants because restaurants offer traditional food to tourists as a way to promote tourism. But the fact that traditional food is offered in restaurants to tourists doesn't make it less traditional!

 

[Finchbearer]

As someone who has a part American family, I can say that from my experience, food in the USA is disproportionately adulterated with sugar, salt and probably some MSG and other chemicals that our bodies generally don’t need, or have little nutritional value. When I’ve visited many times I’ve noticed that everything is sweet, even savoury food. I cooked a frozen pizza once and it was too sweet! This is not accusatory, British food habits are not much better, but the food culture in the USA is wild. You can’t go anywhere without seeing fast food joints, and it’s everywhere, in advertising, everywhere you go you’re bombarded with fatty, sugary food. And then of course that sits in line with the pharmaceutical industry that is allowed to advertise on TV too. I tried watching TV there and it’s literally all pharmaceutical adverts or fast food adverts. It’s a very different culture to what we have here in the UK, and like I say we are a nation that loves carbs too…

So I think it’s more common to see more extremes in the USA, more ultra-fit, vegan or paleo types who have sworn off unhealthy food, which is understandable. I know not everyone here is in the USA, but that’s just my own observations. There’s also a problem mainly in the west of using pesticides and herbicides in industrial farming practices, which does indeed make the ecosystem suffer, and invites more of a monoculture, and therefore more pests that attack the plants we are growing to eat. IMO it all starts in the soil. I read a report on the nutrient content in vegetables in the 1950’s UK a while ago, and it was a startling contrast, there were so many more nutrients in the vegetables themselves. It’s a complex issue that’s not solvable overnight. I grow my own, but I’m not self sustained, and that’s because I have the privilege of being able to that.

 

[Devor]

I would ask you to actually read the articles before commenting.

They refer to restaurants because restaurants offer traditional food to tourists as a way to promote tourism. But the fact that traditional food is offered in restaurants to tourists doesn't make it less traditional!

Honestly, it doesn't even matter, as there are reasons other than diets which contribute to their longevity, which makes it largely anecdotal. And how their pork diet interacts with a low-stress body may be very different than a high-stress body. The pork they ate traditionally wasn't the same breed we eat, or raised on the same feed or circumstances. The only thing that would matter is research on people who are attempting to replicate the Okinawan or Sardinian diets, which isn't here.

 

[Jackarandajam]

All of those Okinawan quotes refer to restaurants, like eight times. Restaurants aren't very indicative of what people eat every day in their homes.

I don't know what the Sardinian quotes are about. They mention whole grains frequently.




As I said in my first post, any diet you can actually follow will improve your health.

But, this is what you're missing:

1) Diets that are implemented slowly over time with small changes here and there have a much higher rate of success.

2) Diets which encourage small amounts of junk food have a much higher rate of success.

3) Diets which mask their junk food (i.e., red meat and butter, even when unprocessed) will end up hurting many of the people who attempt them.

1 & 2) yes, as long as it is understood that the things being consumed are still very bad for you, have no nutritional value and are not "part of the diet." They are the dwindling bad habit.

3) this is simply not true. While the unregulated consumption of vast quantities of butter and red meat might push someone who is already very unhealthy over the edge, relegating them to the category of junk food is extremely uninformed.