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Another question of quality: self-pub.

ACSmyth

Minstrel
She also caught the crest of the wave with the free and 99c promotions, which most people agree have pretty much burned themselves out now.
 

Bansidhe

Minstrel
There's definitely a whole lotta noise out there, CM. I guess the question is: what would you want to get out of self-pubbing, what are you willing to put into it, and is it going to be your primary mode of being published? For instance, I'm not looking for a million reviews, or a million dollars, from self-pubbing. Instead, I'm seeking a "hybrid" path--one I believe will become more and more prevalent in the next few years, and there's definitely more than one acceptable business model. (Especially when Random House pens a deal with Author House, one of those exploit-y vanity presses every writer should be aware of). Honestly, I think a lot of it is all up in the air at this point, and the dust as yet to settle. It's an exciting time for an author, but VERY noisy and strange, kind of like the planet Kuzbane. :D

Authors with extended backlists are re-editing themselves and self-pubbing when the rights revert back to them, giving their portfolio of work a fresh start in life. Others are self-pubbing a book while they shop it traditionally to agents and publishers. How I'm utilizing it, for example, is to self-pub a free series of companion pieces to the series I'm writing for my publisher, to try to reach new readers.

My best advice to cutting through the garbage heap is to find those authors who are using the platform well. When I attended a panel with Hugh Howey, for example, he had very viable reasons for pursuing a largely self-pubbed path after spending years in the book business in various roles. He recommended a three-prong attack if self-pubbing is going to be your chosen primary route: Amazon KDP or Smashwords for ebooks (I opted for the latter, since it automatically distributes to multiple ebook platforms, not just Amazon), Createspace for print, and ACX for audio distribution.

The best thing you can do is study the paths available to you closely, and go with what's right for you--because it's a business decision on your part based on what's best for you as an author and for your books--not because something's the newest, greatest fad since sliced bread. Yes there's a lot of garbage out there--but that's just the nature of the internet, unfortunately.
 
C

Chessie

Guest
Awesome response, Bansidhe. Very encouraging, thank you. The hybrid route is one I'm interested in at some point in the future.
 
I want to go back to the original posts in this thread for a second.

First, the OP said she ""looked inside" about three dozen self-published books".

Nobody else here picked up on the fatal flaw in that statement, so I'll share.

How did you know they were self published?

The reason I ask is simple: most good self published books are *indistinguishable* from any trad pub book. In other words, if you can easily tell that a book is self published, odds are that it's not very good. (Not ALWAYS the case, but odds favor obviously self published books being lower quality.)

Right now, about half of all science fiction and fantasy ebooks sold in the USA are self published. If you go to the Kindle store, and check out the top 100 bestselling in fantasy, about 50% will be self published. Most of the readers of those SP ebooks have NO idea that the books they are reading were self published. Why would they? They look just like every other book.

I spent a lot of time in 2012 and 2013 doing surveys of the SF&F genres. It was fun; but one thing I noticed: it started off pretty easy to spot most of the SP titles, and got REALLY HARD by the end of 2012. Lots of small presses were selling ebooks at "indie" price ranges, and lots of SP writers were selling ebooks at $5-8, so price was no longer a good marker. Most of the more successful indie writers had their own imprint/business name, too, so that meant I had to Google random business names and figure out which were multi-author small presses and which were self publishing small presses (publishing company owned by the author).

I'd been doing it a while, and *I* was having a tough time telling the indie books apart from the trad pub ones in many cases!

And that's because if you're doing self publishing right, the quality is such that the average reader isn't going to know.
 
That said, there is another important factor to consider. People talk about how "80% of indies make less than $X", or "the average indie makes only $Y".

Here's another one: the average self published book makes more money than the average work submitted to traditional publishers.

(That is, of course, because almost all submissions to traditional publishers make $0, because they are not accepted.)

The OP wrote: "What can we (if we intend to self-publish) do, to ensure our reputation is high and we float to the top of the (sorry) garbage heap? How do you guys who self-publish, ensure you aren't lost in a sea of crap?"

There's a lot of poorly written books being published right now. Why worry about them? Readers will ignore them, and move on. I hear a lot of writers complain about how they will be found above the rising tide of slush - about how it is now so hard for a SP book to find readers, because of all the bad SP books.

Hint: every book is in the same pile. Being traditionally published isn't going to help, because they are on the same virtual shelves as the indie ebooks (and half of fiction is already being sold in ebook format, and that's growing every year as print declines). Not a lot of real marketing advantage to being trad pubbed anymore (for most writers).

So the answer then is that you become found by writing a good book, and producing it well. Same as all the other good books get found.

Ignore the slush. It's irrelevant. As Neil Gaiman says: make good art.
 
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PaulineMRoss

Inkling
That said, there is another important factor to consider. People talk about how "80% of indies make less than $X", or "the average indie makes only $Y".

Here's another one: the average self published book makes more money than the average work submitted to traditional publishers.

There are some interesting statistics coming out just now regarding how much money authors make (in trad, self and hybrid categories). One found that most authors (of any type) make less than $1000 a year. Here's a good round-up of recent numbers:

All About The Money: Authors, Readers, and Ebook Prices | Jami Gold, Paranormal Author

ETA: Should also say: you make some great points, especially about how difficult it is to tell which books are self-published. I also spend a lot of time trying to work that out. It really isn't obvious in many cases.
 
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Philip Overby

Staff
Article Team
Not a lot of real marketing advantage to being trad pubbed anymore (for most writers).

This is a serious question as I don't know much about these kind of things (I'm learning more and more everyday), but what about having your books in print in stores or in libraries? While I do agree e-books are the way of the future, there has to be some advantage to having your book both in print and in e-book format.

ETA: Should also say: you make some great points, especially about how difficult it is to tell which books are self-published. I also spend a lot of time trying to work that out. It really isn't obvious in many cases.

I agree that it gets harder and harder, but I think only the highest quality self-published work is hard to spot. Sadly, you can judge a book by its cover nowadays. A lot of books with bad cover art (not all of them mind you) are a good sign of what might be inside.
 
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Graylorne

Archmage
But there aren't all that many sp books with really bad covers any more.

Besides, I'm told many trade publishers have begun to use stock images for their covers as well, so the difference between sp and trad becomes even smaller.

About getting your book in a library or book store. I've no idea how that works in the US, but over here it's nearly impossible to get a fantasy book in a book store, unless you have something like the Wheel of Time or the Hunger Games. The others sell only online. And every book with an isbn is in the online stores. I can't imagine it being very different in the US. Go to any library and check the amount of trade published books. How many will that be?

In NL it is interesting to get your book in the libraries. US, I don't know.

I do know that I can make my sp books available for US libraries and book stores, by using an Amazon isbn instead of my own. I won't because I don't think it will make much difference.
 

PaulineMRoss

Inkling
This is a serious question as I don't know much about these kind of things (I'm learning more and more everyday), but what about having your books in print in stores or in libraries? While I do agree e-books are the way of the future, there has to be some advantage to having your book both in print and in e-book format.

Print distribution is virtually the ONLY big advantage that trad publishers have over self-publishers these days. Self-pubbers can have print versions of their books, it's not that hard to do, and sell them online. But only trad publishers have the distribution network to get an author's book into every bookstore in the country.

Mind you, that is less of an advantage than it used to be. Bricks and mortar bookstores are disappearing so fast it's dizzying, and although they'll never disappear altogether, it will be a modest number of small neighbourhood and airport shops rather than vast numbers of warehouse-sized outlets. Then there's the ludicrously outdated system of returns, so even if your book goes out to a bookstore, it may very well come back again later.

There are perfectly good reasons for authors to sign with traditional publishers (large or small), but it's nothing like the no-brainer it was even 5 years ago. Authors should go into it with their eyes wide open, keep themselves informed of the ever-changing landscape, and read every word in the contract very, very carefully.
 

Philip Overby

Staff
Article Team
But there aren't all that many sp books with really bad covers any more.

I've seen your covers, Graylorne and they're awesome. For your books, I couldn't tell how they were published. I still don't know, actually. :)

However, I still see a great quantity of slapdash covers. Maybe we're looking in different places though, I don't know.

Besides, I'm told many trade publishers have begun to use stock images for their covers as well, so the difference between sp and trad becomes even smaller.

Stock images aren't so bad to me if presented well.

About getting your book in a library or book store. I've no idea how that works in the US, but over here it's nearly impossible to get a fantasy book in a book store, unless you have something like the Wheel of Time or the Hunger Games. The others sell only online. And every book with an isbn is in the online stores. I can't imagine it being very different in the US. Go to any library and check the amount of trade published books. How many will that be?

In NL it is interesting to get your book in the libraries. US, I don't know.

I do know that I can make my sp books available for US libraries and book stores, by using an Amazon isbn instead of my own. I won't because I don't think it will make much difference.

Generally speaking, the libraries that I grew up around in Mississippi (which isn't the most sprawling urban kind of area) always had a healthy supply of fantasy books. While most of them were well-known names, there were some lesser known ones as well. University libraries would have a decent variety as well. I'm not sure how the state of things is now, because I haven't been in a library in the US since maybe 2006? So no telling.

Print distribution is virtually the ONLY big advantage that trad publishers have over self-publishers these days. Self-pubbers can have print versions of their books, it's not that hard to do, and sell them online. But only trad publishers have the distribution network to get an author's book into every bookstore in the country.

I still think traditional is going to have the wider net. If you're published by one of the Big Six, they're going to promote you in places where a lot of eyes are. For instance, a debut writer Brian Stavely had his first book released about a week ago. I found out about it because Tor.com was putting a lot of promotional strength behind it and it was on several "books to watch in 2014" lists (which are mostly traditional published books.) I've really enjoyed the book so far, but I doubt I would have ever found it if not for the promotion and exposure behind it.

Chuck Wendig wrote a blog post a while back saying, "why choose? Why not do both?" If I had my druthers, that's what I would do and that's what I hope. Michael J. Sullivan has made the hybrid approach sound very attractive and has noted the advantages of both traditional and self-publishing for him.

There are perfectly good reasons for authors to sign with traditional publishers (large or small), but it's nothing like the no-brainer it was even 5 years ago. Authors should go into it with their eyes wide open, keep themselves informed of the ever-changing landscape, and read every word in the contract very, very carefully.

I agree, as there are pitfalls and warnings that come with any kind of approach really. I think some self-published authors still go in blind just thinking if they put something out there, people will automatically buy it. I believe you get what you put in though. If you put out something sub-par, you're going to (most likely) get sub-par results.
 

Graylorne

Archmage
Ah, but Brian Staveley hasn't been exactly shy about his book himself :) I've been falling over the Emperor's Blades in a lot of places.

My English books are selfpublished, my Dutch books are trade.
For me, selfpublishing was a matter of choice. I already knew the other side of things and I knew it was to me an ill-fitting suit. Too slow, too much restrictions, indifferent communications, etc. Life as an author-publisher (as Chuck Wendig named it) is much more hectic, just as uncertain, but at least my own.
 
This is a serious question as I don't know much about these kind of things (I'm learning more and more everyday), but what about having your books in print in stores or in libraries? While I do agree e-books are the way of the future, there has to be some advantage to having your book both in print and in e-book format.

Sure, absolutely there is. I mean, I put all my self pub books in print, too. There are advantages to being in print even if you're NOT getting into brick and mortar retail channels.

Important to remember though: almost no traditionally published books get into major brick retail channels. Most are from small presses; most small presses can't get into chain bookstores and other chain stores. If your work is published by a company that CAN get into B&N, then you're getting some value from it, of course. But even then - you're only making maybe 50 cents or so per sale on MMP print books. It takes a LOT of fifty cent sales to make up for the 3/4 of the income the publisher takes on ebooks.

Then too, how long will your book be in those bookstores? Most fiction from major publishers lasts 1-6 months on bookstore shelves. VERY few titles stay there longer. Unless you're a writer the publisher has invested heavily in, your work isn't likely to stick around in stores very long. But it will be for sale online (mostly selling as ebook) for a long time - decades, at least. Assuming you keep writing and publishing during those years, it is almost certain that book will continue selling online, at least at a slow trickle, for all those years.

For most *career* writers, the majority of sales - and thus income - from a book is not going to come in the first three months anymore. It's going to come from the sales over time, over the course of a long writing career.

(And as a corollary, non-career writers are going to have a much tougher time selling much of anything. It's a great time to be a career-minded writer, and not such a hot time to be someone who just "wanted to write a book".)
 

Graylorne

Archmage
Important to remember though: almost no traditionally published books get into major brick retail channels. Most are from small presses; most small presses can't get into chain bookstores and other chain stores. If your work is published by a company that CAN get into B&N, then you're getting some value from it, of course. But even then - you're only making maybe 50 cents or so per sale on MMP print books. It takes a LOT of fifty cent sales to make up for the 3/4 of the income the publisher takes on ebooks.

That's what I supposed. Glad to have it confirmed. So the situations of US and BL are comparable.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
want to go back to the original posts in this thread for a second.

First, the OP said she ""looked inside" about three dozen self-published books".

Nobody else here picked up on the fatal flaw in that statement, so I'll share.

How did you know they were self published?

Kevin,

The question becomes: how are readers finding books?

If I stumble across a book on Amazon or Goodreads through a recommendation, I probably won't know whether it's traditional or self published. However, I find a lot of my reading material through blogs and by asking specifically for recommendations of good indie authors. I also look for lists of best indie books. In these cases, I often do have an idea if it's self published or not.
 
As a general rule, most readers are still finding books by browsing for them. We know this, because having a book on a genre or even sub-sub-genre top 20 list has an enormous effect on sales. Getting on a genre top hundred list is big. So readers are tending to pop into the genre list of their choice and scroll through a few pages, maybe reading blurbs for anything that catches their eye, and downloading samples for anything with a good blurb.

Because about half of all the genre top hundred lists are indie, those readers are grabbing a lot of indie titles. And most of them have no idea who published the books.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
We know this, because having a book on a genre or even sub-sub-genre top 20 list has an enormous effect on sales.

Kevin,

I thought that I had read that the bump for getting on a top 10 list was only about 10-20%. That's not insignificant by any means, but is that considered "enormous?" Or did I remember the actual number wrong?
 
C

Chessie

Guest
I usually look up the author on Wiki, or check the back of the book for publishing information. I have a running list of Indie books and authors I have tried. I think its only fair to look them up because I do really want to know who is publishing what. :) I'm just weird like that.
 
Brian, if you look at sales vs rank, the graph looks like a geometric scale. So at 10k rank, you're maybe making 500 sales a month. At 5k, maybe 1000 a month, or about 30 per day. By rank 1000, it's gone up to hundreds per day. By rank 100, it's hundreds more, maybe as many as 1000 a day. By the top couple of ranks, you're looking at 5-10k sales per day.

(Above is a bit dated, could be higher by now - but illustrative of the way it flows.)

I don't know the precise jump for placement on a given page. I've heard about people whose sales have doubled by going from rank 21 in a genre to rank 20 - just moving from one page to another - but i think that's extreme.

Getting onto a top ten list probably does very little, since Amazon defaults to 20 books per page when browsing. It's the top 20, 40, 60, etc. that counts most, i think.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
Brian, if you look at sales vs rank, the graph looks like a geometric scale. So at 10k rank, you're maybe making 500 sales a month. At 5k, maybe 1000 a month, or about 30 per day. By rank 1000, it's gone up to hundreds per day. By rank 100, it's hundreds more, maybe as many as 1000 a day. By the top couple of ranks, you're looking at 5-10k sales per day.

(Above is a bit dated, could be higher by now - but illustrative of the way it flows.)

I don't know the precise jump for placement on a given page. I've heard about people whose sales have doubled by going from rank 21 in a genre to rank 20 - just moving from one page to another - but i think that's extreme.

Getting onto a top ten list probably does very little, since Amazon defaults to 20 books per page when browsing. It's the top 20, 40, 60, etc. that counts most, i think.

Kevin,

I get that a difference in rank means a huge difference in sales. That, however, does not prove causation.

I got from the original post that your claim was, "A jump in rank results in a huge jump in sales."

I think that the opposite is true, "A huge jump in sales results in a jump in rank."

It's been a while since I read the article and my memory is spotty on it, but my recollection was that the author related quantitatively the difference in his sales that he attributed from people buying off his category list. The numbers he came up with weren't as high as you would imagine; I'm pretty sure it wasn't more than a 25% jump.
 
It's a search page, Brian. While I doubt it's anywhere near as front loaded as Google's search results, it's well demonstrated that searches are HEAVILY weighted toward the first page or two of results.

A comment from David Gaughran on the subject: "All of these categories and lists are reader discovery tools. Many readers browse through these lists looking for books to buy. Placement on these lists can drive a lot of sales. For example, Let’s Get Digital was at or near the top of its “genre” list for months in both the UK and the US, which really boosted sales."
 
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