Anything controversial about my martial art fantasy story?

[WonderingSword5]

My MC will be 100% white American, his kung fu Chinese martial arts teacher growing up is a major villain, who is also 100% white American. The MC later on in his life learns Japanese martial arts from a new good teacher(also white American). The MC one day meets the new teacher's daughter, who is half Japanese/Ainu mixed, since her mother was from that background. The MC and the good teacher's daughter eventually fall in love and have a son together, which would make the son white, with a quarter Japanese/Ainu descent.

There's this immortal Chinese martial artist, who used to be an emperor in ancient China, who's another major villain in the story, who seeks out the MC's son and his wife, since the wife and son both inherted these animal like spirit powers from the wife's side of the family. The bad American kung fu teacher also seeks out after the wife and son for their powers to use for his enhanced stim company and fighting tournament. The American MC, his half American/Japanese/Ainu mixed wife and their son would be facing against the MC's bad childhood American kung fu teacher and his henchmen, as well as the immortal Chinese emperor with his Chinese henchmen.

I have no intention of trying to target any race or background. This is just how the story is set up. The MC's bad American kung fu sifu style has a connection with the immortal Chinese emperor and the Chinese immortal seeks the MC's wife and son because back in ancient times, the emperor went to Japan to get a hold of these animal spirit shapeshifting powers that this small group of Ainu carry, since he can only shapeshit into only humans, which he failed to do.

There will also be good Chinese characters in my story.

Please let me know if there is any political issue here or anything that can be a problem, thank you

 

[Rosemary Tea]

The problem isn't the Chinese characters being evil or good. What would be a problem is if the white characters read as relatable people while the Chinese characters do not. If the Chinese characters are just flat good guys and bad guys, or limited to tropes like the immortal Chinese emperor, while the white characters are just plain people like you and me, that's stereotyping and othering. To not make it a problem, include Chinese characters who are people like you and me.

No one relates to an immortal emperor, Chinese or otherwise. The immortal emperor is a trope. So are henchmen. It's okay to have those tropes in the story if you also have relatable, non-stereotyped Chinese characters, but if all your Chinese characters are tropes, that's a problem.

In this context, the animal spirit powers coming from the MC's wife's Ainu heritage is also problematic. Why does it have to be an Asian character who has animal spirit powers inherited from their ancestors? Why can't it be a white character? As it is, you've framed it so that only non-white/ethnic minority characters have mystical spirit powers. That casts the non-white/ethnic minority characters as other. It may be a "noble savage" kind of stereotyping, but it's still stereotyping.

 

[Chasejxyz]

Stop using the term "mixed," first off, it's a very old fashioned term and comes off as really Gross (the whole concept of "race mixing" is white supremacist, and that's not the kind of thing you want people to think about when reading your story).

Having only the PoC have magical powers, especially related to animals or spirits, is Not Great, too. There's history in PoC having "backwards" religions that worship animals, ghosts and things other than the capital G God, who is the one true God, so you can see where that is icky. It also throws in some historical problems, like if your PoC have the ability to use magic and spirits, well, clearly they are not all that powerful because those groups still got colonized/oppressed by European countries.

Have you ever heard of the White Savior Trope? It's when a white person comes in and does a thing better than the native people and saves them, as they aren't able to save themselves. In Disney's Atlantis and StarGate, a white linguist guy is able to read this language that has split off from all other languages thousands of years ago very easily, which allows him to read some very simple instructions to save these poor, dumb natives (and then he gets to marry the hot princess). Avatar is another example, but a little more excusable since the Na'vi wouldn't be as familiar with guns as, you know, people who spoke that language for thousands of years. So your white (or, for the son, mostly white) characters having these powers or fighting to save PoC isn't very great, because why can't they save themselves?

China and Japan have an...interesting relationship, especially in regards to them invading each other. As do the Japanese with the Ainu, which is more like how we Americans treated the Native Americans. Even today there is a lot of issues, with popular TV personalities making "lol ainu are just dumb animals" jokes and Shinzo Abe pushing revisionist histories. There's been cities that put up statues/memorials for """""comfort women""""" and the Japanese government got really upset that they were perpetuating these "falsehoods." Like these are really big issues happening right now, still.

I get that what you're writing is really inspired by 80's kung-fu movies, and that's cool! But also when you take inspiration from older media, you need to realize that those were created in a different cultural climate, where people weren't as aware of these things. People were making these movies for white audiences, Asian actors took these roles because they really didn't have much of a choice, what other roles were they going to be hired for? White people absolutely can make stories based on east Asian myths and cultures, but research and care needs to be taken into account. Look at Avatar (the show), that was made by two white American dudes, but it's clear they did a ton of homework and had a lot of respect for those cultures instead of just picking and choosing what looked cool.

Also stop framing it as a "political issue," because that implies that there is a difference in opinion, or that someone being a certain demographic is inherently political. This is why it's very stupid when people get upset that PoC or women or LGBTQ people are put into a work because it's "political." My existence as a queer person isn't a political statement. It's what I am, it's reality, and acting like my right to exist is up to debate erases my autonomy and experience.

 

[pmmg]

Write the story you envision, and make no apologies.

 

[skip.knox]

Write the story you envision, and make no apologies.

I like this advice in a general sense, but if the author is a newbie, with little experience either with writing or with life in general--and with the issue in question specifically--then this advice is problematic.

The author might not have a clear vision, for one thing, and is trying to gain clarity. For another, what is envisioned might be simply wrong--you may choose to define "wrong" here however you please. At the very least, it is entirely possible the author is considering the issue from one perspective only, regardless of right or wrong, and it would be good for them be made aware of other perspectives. This, not only from the point of view of social norms and so on, but also purely from a writing angle.

Anyway, no criticism intended of pmmg's observation. I just wanted to add, well, another perspective.

 

[FifthView]

I have no intention of trying to target any race or background. This is just how the story is set up.

Well but who sets it up, and how, and why?

Can any of these characters be from a different ethnic heritage than you've mentioned?

Must they be as you've described?

Why?

I'm not saying yes or no. I'm just asking questions. You've chosen this setup for a reason. Because you've asked the questions, I wonder whether some kind of alarm is going off in the back of your mind. I can't know what the final product will be until it is written, but you have a better idea already of the final product. I'd say write what you want to write, but ask yourself, also, why you want to write it like this. If the answers are fine for you, maybe they'll be fine for others—in the final product. If you still have doubts, then consider alternative developments for your story.

 

[skip.knox]

I don't want to place too much weight on a subject line, but I don't think "controversial" is a good place to start. That is, suppose the answer was, there's nothing controversial there. What is gained? Really, not much more than permission not to change anything, or at minimum not to feel guilty about it. Nothing about that reply helps the story.

You might consider another approach and ask yourself, how does this or that choice help drive a good story?

That is, why are these main characters all white when the context is so obviously Chinese and Japanese? Is the story about those things? Is it more about martial arts? Why does the fighting style matter at all? That is, why not Brazilian martial arts? Why not MMO? Or just plain street fighting? Why is part of the context Chinese while another is Japanese? Why not Korean?

In other words, examine each of the choices you are making--and realize there are probably more choices in here than you're even aware of as yet. Question each of them and consider alternatives. Make sure each is needed and why it's needed, and why you have rejected other approaches. Do all that in connection with the story itself. If the story still requires some specific aspects that you're not sure about, then you can ask more targeted questions.

 

[WonderingSword5]

If the Chinese characters are just flat good guys and bad guys, or limited to tropes like the immortal Chinese emperor, while the white characters are just plain people like you and me, that's stereotyping and othering

There would be Chinese characters that are just as relatable as the white characters, as there would be white characters that are flat out bad guys as well, like the bad martial arts teacher who is white.

The immortal emperor is a trope. So are henchmen. It's okay to have those tropes in the story if you also have relatable, non-stereotyped Chinese characters, but if all your Chinese characters are tropes, that's a problem.

If anything, it would be just the emperor but since he's immortal, he wouldn't look like some ancient dynasty emperor and would look like a modern person in modern clothing set modern times. Think like Highlander, which I understand is an old, outdated 80's type of reference.

Why does it have to be an Asian character who has animal spirit powers inherited from their ancestors? Why can't it be a white character? As it is, you've framed it so that only non-white/ethnic minority characters have mystical spirit powers.

It's because the Chinese immortal leader is after this spirit powers, since ancient times, which was taking place in Asia. It might not make sense if he was going after someone with powers from a European country at that time.

That casts the non-white/ethnic minority characters as other. It may be a "noble savage" kind of stereotyping, but it's still stereotyping.

I didn't mean to do it that way, I'm sorry.

Stop using the term "mixed," first off, it's a very old fashioned term and comes off as really Gross (the whole concept of "race mixing" is white supremacist, and that's not the kind of thing you want people to think about when reading your story).

I'm sorry, that was not my intention at all. I didn't mean for it to come off that way. I need to fix this.

It also throws in some historical problems, like if your PoC have the ability to use magic and spirits, well, clearly they are not all that powerful because those groups still got colonized/oppressed by European countries.

What if I had both the PoC's and white characters having powers? PoC's have the more good spirits that are worshipped and the whites thst colonized could of had powerful, bad evil magic. Think of witches, demons, vampires, etc. There's many ways they could of used these demonic and evil bloodthirsty entities against these indigenous native groups that were less violent and explain how they were overtaken by European diseases?

In Disney's Atlantis and StarGate, a white linguist guy is able to read this language that has split off from all other languages thousands of years ago very easily, which allows him to read some very simple instructions to save these poor, dumb natives (and then he gets to marry the hot princess).

I wouldn't do anything like this, if anything, the MC's wife is more powerful than he is and in this modern setting her family/relatives are not dumb or naive, neither were their ancestors. The Chinese emperor was very powerful with magic when he tried to raid the Ainu groups in Northern Japan and even they managed to defeat the Chinese emperor and the emperor's army and seal him away until he's awakened again centuries later in my story. So I'm keeping away from there being a white savior, the Ainu people were the saviors and in modern times the one who defeats him would be the MC's son, although the son is only a quarter Japanese and Ainu, which might b e bad.

China and Japan have an...interesting relationship, especially in regards to them invading each other. As do the Japanese with the Ainu, which is more like how we Americans treated the Native Americans. Even today there is a lot of issues, with...

I guess I'm in a lot of trouble now, because I can see how this will draw lots of hate and tension

I get that what you're writing is really inspired by 80's kung-fu movies, and that's cool! But also when you take inspiration from older media, you need to realize that those were created in a different cultural climate, where people weren't as aware of these things. People were making these movies for white audiences, Asian actors took these roles because they really didn't have much of a choice, what other roles were they going to be hired for?

I'm sorry, I did not know this. I don't know much about kung fu 80's movies, it just so happens some things sound similar. Alot of my inspiration was from the Cobra Kai series, which I guess has a nostalgic 80's feel to it.

Also stop framing it as a "political issue," because that implies that there is a difference in opinion, or that someone being a certain demographic is inherently political. This is why it's very stupid when people get upset that PoC or women or LGBTQ people are put into a work because it's "political." My existence as a queer person isn't a political statement. It's what I am, it's reality, and acting like my right to exist is up to debate erases my autonomy and experience.

I'm really sorry. I wasn't trying to imply it that way and I think I said it wrong, which is coming off as if I meant political in that term. What I meant by political is the tensions between China and Japan and their political situation with how their governments don't like eachother and their history with wars. Me having a good Japanese chatacter or good half Japanese character fighting bad Chinese characters is what was worrying me and what I meant by a political problem. That's what I was trying to say, which might tick off Chinese people.

 

[Rosemary Tea]

It's because the Chinese immortal leader is after this spirit powers, since ancient times, which was taking place in Asia. It might not make sense if he was going after someone with powers from a European country at that time.

It makes no more sense for the spirit powers he's after to be Ainu powers, specifically. Japan is not China. Japan was isolated from the rest of the world, including China, for a significant portion of history. And the Ainu are a historically isolated minority within Japan. What would a Chinese emperor have known about them? How would he have had any access to them?

But China itself is very ethnically diverse, with a very rich history of different folklores, customs, and languages. Westerners often don't realize how diverse China is, because we have it presented to us as if all Chinese were the same ethnicity. Chinese people who've immigrated get lumped together as one ethnicity in their new country, but that isn't so. They don't even all speak the same language, although they do share a written language.

So, if this emperor has been after legendary spirit powers since ancient times, it would make more sense for the powers to belong (in actuality or in rumor) to a certain people within China. Maybe a group historically isolated in the mountains or desert. But to put that in the story, you'd need to do some research and learn about the different peoples in China.

 

[WonderingSword5]

Write the story you envision, and make no apologies.

I would but it's causing lots of tension. Look how many people are mad at me

 

[Rosemary Tea]

I would but it's causing lots of tension. Look how many people are mad at me

I don't see anyone being mad at you. I'm certainly not.

Criticism isn't the same thing as anger.

 

[Rosemary Tea]

Stop using the term "mixed," first off, it's a very old fashioned term and comes off as really Gross (the whole concept of "race mixing" is white supremacist, and that's not the kind of thing you want people to think about when reading your story).

Really? I know several people who self identify as mixed race, or simply say, "I'm mixed." Odd thing to say about oneself if it's an offensive term.

 

[WonderingSword5]

It makes no more sense for the spirit powers he's after to be Ainu powers, specifically. Japan is not China. Japan was isolated from the rest of the world, including China, for a significant portion of history. And the Ainu are a historically isolated minority within Japan. What would a Chinese emperor have known about them? How would he have had any access to them?

Yes correct, I know they are completely different countries. The idea was that this would of been secret and only this emperor and his group of soldiers would have known about this group of Ainu with these spirits and only they would have gone to Japan in secrecy. Plus he has shapeshifting magic and can turn into any human being he comes in contact with.

But China itself is very ethnically diverse, with a very rich history of different folklores, customs, and languages. Westerners often don't realize how diverse China is, because we have it presented to us as if all Chinese were the same ethnicity. Chinese people who've immigrated get lumped together as one ethnicity in their new country, but that isn't so. They don't even all speak the same language, although they do share a written language.

Yes this I know about. Even today China has different ethic groups, terroritories and languages, like Cantonese, Mandarin, Hong Kong, Mainland China, etc. So I know they are not all the same ethnic group. Sorry if I gave that impression.

So, if this emperor has been after legendary spirit powers since ancient times, it would make more sense for the powers to belong (in actuality or in rumor) to a certain people within China. Maybe a group historically isolated in the mountains or desert. But to put that in the story, you'd need to do some research and learn about the different peoples in China.

That would make more sense. Only thing is since this story is about martial arts, I know more about the Japanese martial arts than Chinese, but I like the historical culture of China better. But I can write about Japanese martial arts better than Chinese arts.

I don't see anyone being mad at you. I'm certainly not.

I'm sorry, I didn't mean to accuse you or anyone. But there are people who've gotten mad at me when I talked about this before, even someone who is Chinese.

 

[WonderingSword5]

The author might not have a clear vision, for one thing, and is trying to gain

Yes, this is my concern so I don't fall into the bad habits of negative stereotyping.

Can any of these characters be from a different ethnic heritage than you've mentioned?

I was planning on the MC's top student who he helped train being of South American descent and the MC's son would be rescued by a Chinese female character, who's very important to the story.

I'd say write what you want to write, but ask yourself, also, why you want to write it like this. If the answers are fine for you, maybe they'll be fine for others—in the final product. If you still have doubts, then consider alternative developments for your story.

I might have to change it or have some sensitivity readers and those from any Chinese background to go over it with me. If not, I think I'm going to face trouble.

That is, why are these main characters all white when the context is so obviously Chinese and Japanese? Is the story about those things?

Yes, very much so, and there will be main characters that are Japanese and Chinese.

That is, why not Brazilian martial arts? Why not MMO? Or just plain street fighting? Why is part of the context Chinese while another is Japanese? Why not Korean?

Because the MC's past trainer/and now nemesis is an American old school kung fu teacher, which relates to the Chinese styles and the Ainu/Japanese are connected to the MC's wife.

Question each of them and consider alternatives. Make sure each is needed and why it's needed, and why you have rejected other approaches. Do all that in connection with the story itself. If the story still requires some specific aspects that you're not sure about, then you can ask more targeted questions.

I'll do that, thank you.

 

[WonderingSword5]

Really? I know several people who self identify as mixed race, or simply say, "I'm mixed." Odd thing to say about oneself if it's an offensive term

I'm agreeing with this, and was wondering the same thing. I've heard many people call themselves mixed when they have a diverse ethnic background. I'm glad it's not offensive.

 

[pmmg]

I would but it's causing lots of tension. Look how many people are mad at me

So, it gets you noticed. If its the story they way you envision it, don't write it through the filter of others.

 

[WonderingSword5]

So, it gets you noticed. If its the story they way you envision it, don't write it through the filter of others

But it's a huge risk I'm taking. Everything from a white and Japanese mixed protagonists that use martial arts and have animal spirit powers, to having Chinese kung fu villains, they might notice it, then reject it.

 

[Queshire]

It's not a bad thing for authors to think about stuff like this, but you can't use it as an excuse to not write.

 

[pmmg]

Is there a bloodline that does not have some mixing of ethnicities? Is it possible to have a villain with no ethnicity at all?

You can write not to make waves if you want, but if you spend you energy worrying about who might be offended at every turn, you will lose yourself in that. How much energy we all waste, not on what we are offended by, but what we assume others will be. And most of those people are not offended either, they are offended for their perception of what they think others will be offended by. Truth is, the world is full of people who can deal, and those that cant will hold us back. Let go of them.

If in writing your story your sense is its just too far over the line, then maybe its not the story you believe in anyway.

You need to the write the story in you heart and be true to it. A good story is a good story. Aim for that.

 

[skip.knox]

>nemesis is an American old school kung fu teacher
I was trying to point out that you as the author make these choices. The *only* reason the nemesis is an American old-school kung fu teacher is because that's what you chose. You could have chosen to make him Canadian, a female, new-school, jujitsu or some other discipline, renegade rather than teacher.

Every one of those aspects is a choice you have made. It's possible--and I do not mean this specifically to you--that the choice was unconscious, drawing on stereotypes. There's nothing intrinsically wrong with that ... unless the author does not examine each one and know why that aspect is there, and how it contributes to the story, and is a better choice than some other.

So, that's why I asked why not Brazilian, etc.

I'm sure all this (from me and others) can make you feel uncertain at best, and maybe even attacked. We don't mean it in that spirit. Rather, we saw a question asked that in turn raises a whole constellation of other questions, and we're suggesting you need to have a look at those as well. Moreover, and this is just from me, in addressing those other questions, you may well end up answering your original question yourself.