Ask me about archery, longbows especially.

[Malik]

This could probably come down to a definition of steel. Low-carbon steel, or pretty much iron that got some carbon in it in the process of being made, was around sort of by default, if my memory serves. For most of medieval times, good steel was maybe used in small tools when it was made at all, not things you fling through the air and lose in battle.

I should have been clearer and pointed out that I meant steel remotely comparable to today's steel. Testing, say, a 5160 arrowhead against a set of welded mail made from spring-tempered 01 tool steel, is not remotely the same as using what was available in, say, the Early Middle Ages. I've made shear steel by hand. It is a ridiculous amount of work for even one small tool, and the quality is definitely hit and miss.

 

[joshua mcdermott]

hey: i realized the thread title and had a question:

this summer I was up at my brother's place and he had an old long bow. providence unknown, but it felt maybe 70 lbs? I'd used it several times before but this time, I pulled it... perhaps too far? as I am used to asian bows and am happy at like 35 inches- and it snapped in half. Any advice on a decent long bow to get him to replace? I see some for like 1400$ but hoping for something around half that.

 

[Malik]

hey: i realized the thread title and had a question:

this summer I was up at my brother's place and he had an old long bow. providence unknown, but it felt maybe 70 lbs? I'd used it several times before but this time, I pulled it... perhaps too far? as I am used to asian bows and am happy at like 35 inches- and it snapped in half. Any advice on a decent long bow to get him to replace? I see some for like 1400$ but hoping for something around half that.

You're lucky you got out of there with both eyes intact. Good for you.

There's a Traditional Archery group on Facebook that often has used bows for sale. I think it's the biggest one, something like 80K members. That's where I'd start. Good luck!

 

[joshua mcdermott]

You're lucky you got out of there with both eyes intact. Good for you.

There's a Traditional Archery group on Facebook that often has used bows for sale. I think it's the biggest one, something like 80K members. That's where I'd start. Good luck!

I always wear glasses. but don't FB

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Yeah, I once had an old recurve (happily, a wussy bow) snap. It was worth a good laugh once you realize there's no blood.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

I've heard good things about Ravenbeak, but haven't used any of their bows. I've been shooting recurve for the past 20 years and have never gotten around to a nice longbow. A friend has a Yew bow from them. They aren't cheap, but aren't the most expensive either.

 

[Aldarion]

I should have been clearer and pointed out that I meant steel remotely comparable to today's steel. Testing, say, a 5160 arrowhead against a set of welded mail made from spring-tempered 01 tool steel, is not remotely the same as using what was available in, say, the Early Middle Ages. I've made shear steel by hand. It is a ridiculous amount of work for even one small tool, and the quality is definitely hit and miss.

You might look at tests by Tod's Workshop. That guy actually makes weapons by hand, using the same processes that were done at the time.

So his tests are the closest you will ever get to actual medieval weaponry, IMO.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

I did find the spreadsheet that gives a person an idea of bow ranges. It was designed for GURPS, so it gives you a bunch of gaming stats, but it's still useful when trying to get a basic idea of what a fantasy bow might do when handled by a 500 lbs, 10-foot-tall (insert favorite fantasy critter here). It is modeled on the physics of beam bending. It's fun to toy around with. Years ago I used it to get an idea of what range a well-made 8-foot-longbow with several hundred pounds of draw could achieve in range. An army with these would have a crazy "artillery" advantage over human archers, heh heh. It gets pretty technical with things such as:

Deflection (δ)
Deflection is how far the ends of the bow move when the bow is pulled to full weight and draw. It is described by the equation for the bending of a beam into a circular segment. This equation is usually applied to small deflections, but is much simpler than the more general case; as George Box said, “all models are wrong, some are useful.”
δ = (k ¥ F ¥ L3)/(32 ¥ E ¥ t4)
Here, E equals the elastic modulus of the bow material (see the Bow Materials Table, pp. 5-6), in lbs./in.2. The variable t equals the thickness of the bow in the bending direction, from back to belly, in inches.

It's called The Deadly Spring and is still available from Steve Jackson Games.

Pyramid #3/33: Low-Tech

The Gear From Yesteryear Is Here! Sticks and stones may break some bones, but inventors make sticks better! This month's Pyramid – the PDF magazine for roleplayers – is dedicated to technology of old, with a special emphasis on material that builds on GURPS Low-Tech: "The Deadly Spring," a...

warehouse23.com

 

[Prince of Spires]

I agree that historically people would not have used or done something if it didn't work. You don't lug around a few kilo's of armor if it doesn't work. And you don't spend hours making arrow heads if they do nothing. Testing historical stuff is hard, just because you're dealing with so many different variables, and you are generally not trying to actually kill someone. Which makes a big difference.

One of the bigger historical sword fighters has commented on this in regards to sharp swords. Two sharp swords fighting behave very differently in some aspects than blunt swords. This means that there are some techniques only work and make sense when using a sharp sword. You can imitate the move with a blunt one of course, but it just doesn't do the same thing. Which means that researching it is hard, since you're now swinging sharp bits of death around.

The heroes in my books take armor and weapons made from modern high-speed steel into a world with Viking-era weapons tech, and quickly learn it's like wearing Iron Man's suit into a bar fight.

This reminded me of the Ulfberht swords, which were actual viking swords, more or less accidentally made of steel. They were considered magical by many of the people coming up against them. Good fun.

IIRC, in The Knight and the Blast Furnace Alan Williams found that 5 out of 6 mail samples were in fact steel rather than iron.

I wonder how much survivor bias is in there. As in, the highest quality pieces are the most likely ones to survive to today so we can examine them. Both because they're higher quality, but also because they're valued more than less high quality pieces, which could just have been repurposed.

 

[Aldarion]

One of the bigger historical sword fighters has commented on this in regards to sharp swords. Two sharp swords fighting behave very differently in some aspects than blunt swords. This means that there are some techniques only work and make sense when using a sharp sword. You can imitate the move with a blunt one of course, but it just doesn't do the same thing. Which means that researching it is hard, since you're now swinging sharp bits of death around.

One such thing is that when sharp swords meet edge-on-edge, they will not bounce and slide off each other but rater bite into each other, as both blades will get chipped by contact.

I wonder how much survivor bias is in there. As in, the highest quality pieces are the most likely ones to survive to today so we can examine them. Both because they're higher quality, but also because they're valued more than less high quality pieces, which could just have been repurposed.

Might be. That is something we simply cannot know, unless material research is done on something like mail from archaeological finds of a battle.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

I was thinking along these lines while playing Swordsman last night, it's a classic argument I have with people training swords and such. Even in something as unrealistic as Swordsman... which is very cool, BTW, the VR is impressive and is really helping to train my off-hand agility in parrying and thrusts... there would be a big difference between how you'd approach a fight in the standard mode versus "permadeath." Now, blow that up exponentially with a REAL life on the line.

Even in VR, I've circled while testing the fight with jabs and flicks against higher opponents for fifteen-twenty seconds. Real blood on the line? Huh.

Testing is difficult as heck, but if you admit to using butted maille, you should just not test it, LMAO. You can't have control over all variables, but if you can control a variable toward reality, you better.

All of this makes me wish I hadn't lost touch with the guy who tested cuir bouilli.

I agree that historically people would not have used or done something if it didn't work. You don't lug around a few kilo's of armor if it doesn't work. And you don't spend hours making arrow heads if they do nothing. Testing historical stuff is hard, just because you're dealing with so many different variables, and you are generally not trying to actually kill someone. Which makes a big difference.

One of the bigger historical sword fighters has commented on this in regards to sharp swords. Two sharp swords fighting behave very differently in some aspects than blunt swords. This means that there are some techniques only work and make sense when using a sharp sword. You can imitate the move with a blunt one of course, but it just doesn't do the same thing. Which means that researching it is hard, since you're now swinging sharp bits of death around.


This reminded me of the Ulfberht swords, which were actual viking swords, more or less accidentally made of steel. They were considered magical by many of the people coming up against them. Good fun.


I wonder how much survivor bias is in there. As in, the highest quality pieces are the most likely ones to survive to today so we can examine them. Both because they're higher quality, but also because they're valued more than less high quality pieces, which could just have been repurposed.