Ask me about Jewish Monsters

[Archon of Cringe]

I grew up Catholic and trust me, a lot of people were called Satan and Devil. Even if they only miscounted exact change.

Yeah, from what I am researching, it's a title given, not the name of a being.

 

[Ozonequeen]

Bearbear, I currently work in a Catholic school where they study the doctrine. It is true that generally speaking, some Christians will call anyone the devil. They are very specific about the who does what in the Bible and old Testament. I thought Satan first appeared in the Book of Job where he acted as a prosecutor, claiming that even the pious of men could turn from God. The serpent is never identified as Satan or the Devil but as a child that was the impression I was given. What I find fascinating is that the snake is later used to symbolize healing and Moses' staff can transform into a snake at will. Like, why would the staff turn into the very creature that symbolizes the deceiver in the book of Genesis? One of the things that always blew my mind is the commandment that says, "Thou shalt not put false gods before me because I, your God, am a jealous God,". Like what need does God have for jealousy? Or the other passage in Genesis where God says: "Let us make man in our image,". Who is us if its supposed to be God? I could go on and on. I'd ask these questions in school and get told it was just a way of talking.

 

[BearBear]

Bearbear, I currently work in a Catholic school where they study the doctrine. It is true that generally speaking, some Christians will call anyone the devil. They are very specific about the who does what in the Bible and old Testament. I thought Satan first appeared in the Book of Job where he acted as a prosecutor, claiming that even the pious of men could turn from God. The serpent is never identified as Satan or the Devil but as a child that was the impression I was given. What I find fascinating is that the snake is later used to symbolize healing and Moses' staff can transform into a snake at will. Like, why would the staff turn into the very creature that symbolizes the deceiver in the book of Genesis? One of the things that always blew my mind is the commandment that says, "Thou shalt not put false gods before me because I, your God, am a jealous God,". Like what need does God have for jealousy? Or the other passage in Genesis where God says: "Let us make man in our image,". Who is us if its supposed to be God? I could go on and on. I'd ask these questions in school and get told it was just a way of talking.

Interpretation is tricky business. Wars are started and lost from misunderstandings.

Where the church lost me most was the rigidity of local dogma. Where two different parishes of the same sect might as well be fighting a holy war. If two Catholics of the same upbringing, same color, same neighborhood can excommunicate each other to the point of boycotting the wedding of and disowning of their own daughter for marrying someone of a different catholic parish, then what hope is there to spread the good news.

True story, that's not something I just made up. And maybe you could say no, these people were lost sheep, but I heard the father (priest) with my own ears say they were right in doing just that.

If that was a test of what little faith I had left, I failed.

The Bible I studied was very holey (pun). The contradictions were too many and too opposed to wrap my mind around. The holes were large enough for two camels to pass. And those in the know didn't know other than the same kind of excuses you heard yourself.

 

[pmmg]

Since the story you posted about is about a golem, how about, what role does this play in Jewish lore? Are their stories that contain them, and what are those stories to teach us about ourselves, and the mystic worlds beyond?

How do you intend to use them, and would they be the same as they appear in folklore, or would you tweak them a little?

 

[Archon of Cringe]

Since the story you posted about is about a golem, how about, what role does this play in Jewish lore? Are their stories that contain them, and what are those stories to teach us about ourselves, and the mystic worlds beyond?

How do you intend to use them, and would they be the same as they appear in folklore, or would you tweak them a little?

Ever heard of the Golem of Prague? It's a famous story in Jewish folklore where to save the Jews in a ghetto, the Maharal (Rabbi Yehuda Lowe) creates a golem. It is often intertwined with blood libels, but I'll stay away from them. The golem was actually smart and would track down the culprit of the blood libels and defeat them. However, things escalated, and the golem went berserk. The regretful Maharal erased the name on his forehead, killing him and sealing the golem in a synagogue's attic. The golem wasn't evil; it was like a child. You can see many similarities with Frankenstein as they bear similar concepts.

Some say Adam is a golem made from clay.

I would be tweaking them a little. I was thinking of taking inspiration from Inuyashiki and how the powers in that manga look like people and their bodies open up to reveal advanced electronic weapons. That is one golem as since the golem was made with the word "Emet, " a golem made with different words could provide different abilities. I also plan on having a female golem later since there are some interpretations that they are possible. I was also thinking of incorporating some miracles, such as the golem changing his body into whatever he wants, based on Moses's contest with the Egyptian mages where they turned objects into animals. Still, Moses's stick ate the creations of the mages, giving him the win.

I still have some kinks to work out, but I feel I am getting close to the final concept.

 

[pmmg]

I would have thought I could shape a golem anyway I wished, so the male/female aspect had always been doable.

If I can make a golem out of clay, why not also with weapons? I guess the question would be, would it know the use them? If it had a fair amount of intelligence, I don't see why not. The idea of creating golem's with different words, is also interesting.

I am inclined to say, Moses's changing staff was not they work of someone creating a very good staff, but again, the will of God in play to cause it to change (or the devil...). So, I might start asking questions as to how the golem would be able to do that on its own. But that is just me.

 

[Archon of Cringe]

I would have thought I could shape a golem anyway I wished, so the male/female aspect had always been doable.

If I can make a golem out of clay, why not also with weapons? I guess the question would be, would it know the use them? If it had a fair amount of intelligence, I don't see why not. The idea of creating golem's with different words, is also interesting.

I am inclined to say, Moses's changing staff was not they work of someone creating a very good staff, but again, the will of God in play to cause it to change (or the devil...). So, I might start asking questions as to how the golem would be able to do that on its own. But that is just me.

The Golem in the Golem of Prague was intelligent enough to solve crimes on its own, tracking criminals down by itself. I feel I need to do more research on witchcraft and such.

 

[Ozonequeen]

The Golem in the Golem of Prague was intelligent enough to solve crimes on its own, tracking criminals down by itself. I feel I need to do more research on witchcraft and such.

By chance, I started 'reading' the Jinni and the Golem on audiobook a few weeks ago. It's a long story but the Golem in the story was created to be intelligent and curious about the world. It is a good story and focuses on not just the main characters but the lives of Jewish and Middle Eastern Immigrants in New York in the early 20th century. Anyway, part of the story is the Golem's 'master' dies shortly after bringing her to life. Instead of one person's desires, she is able to hear everyone's. She is an interesting character, very sympathetic figure. It's over 800 pages and not action packed, hence why I bought the audiobook.

 

[Archon of Cringe]

By chance, I started 'reading' the Jinni and the Golem on audiobook a few weeks ago. It's a long story but the Golem in the story was created to be intelligent and curious about the world. It is a good story and focuses on not just the main characters but the lives of Jewish and Middle Eastern Immigrants in New York in the early 20th century. Anyway, part of the story is the Golem's 'master' dies shortly after bringing her to life. Instead of one person's desires, she is able to hear everyone's. She is an interesting character, very sympathetic figure. It's over 800 pages and not action packed, hence why I bought the audiobook.

Yeah, sounds long and tedious to read (already takes me a month to finish a 400 page book). I'd love to hear anything you know.

 

[pmmg]

already takes me a month to finish a 400 page book

Would take me several months.

 

[Ozonequeen]

Yeah, sounds long and tedious to read (already takes me a month to finish a 400 page book). I'd love to hear anything you know.

The book is a little tedious as its intended to be character driven and an homage I think to Middle Eastern and Jewish immigrants. A theme for both the Jinni and the Golem is the idea that they would terrify their respective communities. The Golem, Hava is taken in by a Rabbi who knows what she is, somehow and helps her to acclimate to life in New York City. Apparently, making a Golem is considered highly unethical. You suggested that Adam was a Golem... So that makes sense, as one would be trying to 'play God' in making one. She is made of clay and the parts of other people (or so its hinted). Her master is given two sets of directions in Hebrew, one for bringing her to life and one for destroying her. The Rabbi finds the directions and hasn't used them. She appears to want to only serve others because that is how she is made. There is a contrast that exists between her and Jinni. He is a spirit of the air trapped in mortal flesh while she is a creature of earth. Apparently, they don't even meet until halfway through the book and become soulmates. Though not sure how that one is supposed to work because I can see him really despising her. He thinks humans and human existence are banal and boring and loathes being trapped in a mortal body.

 

[Ozonequeen]

Speaking of Adam and the clay story... In some gnostic texts, they claim the false god, Yabaldaoth l, made Adam in his own image to glorify himself but as a creature of ego and not God he couldn't bring him to life. Sophia took pity on the creation and breathed life info Adam

 

[Archon of Cringe]

The book is a little tedious as its intended to be character driven and an homage I think to Middle Eastern and Jewish immigrants. A theme for both the Jinni and the Golem is the idea that they would terrify their respective communities. The Golem, Hava is taken in by a Rabbi who knows what she is, somehow and helps her to acclimate to life in New York City. Apparently, making a Golem is considered highly unethical. You suggested that Adam was a Golem... So that makes sense, as one would be trying to 'play God' in making one. She is made of clay and the parts of other people (or so its hinted). Her master is given two sets of directions in Hebrew, one for bringing her to life and one for destroying her. The Rabbi finds the directions and hasn't used them. She appears to want to only serve others because that is how she is made. There is a contrast that exists between her and Jinni. He is a spirit of the air trapped in mortal flesh while she is a creature of earth. Apparently, they don't even meet until halfway through the book and become soulmates. Though not sure how that one is supposed to work because I can see him really despising her. He thinks humans and human existence are banal and boring and loathes being trapped in a mortal body.

The romance doesn't make much sense from the way you describe it but the idea that the female Golem is named after the hebrew name for Eve (Hava or Chava in terms of pronunciation) is quite interesting considering the "Adam was a Golem" idea. It's interesting how Hava is a bridge between the Golem of Prague (innocent-natured and created to serve a greater purpose) and Frankenstein (being made of human parts). Creating a golem is like creating a person which is like imitating G-d, so naturally, it isn't ethical (especially considering she is likely made of cadavers). I am curious how Hava tries to acclimate to New York life, can you share that? Also, I would like more information on the spirit itself. How did he come to be in mortal flesh and how does that make it different from us, who have souls in our bodies?

Speaking of Adam and the clay story... In some gnostic texts, they claim the false god, Yabaldaoth l, made Adam in his own image to glorify himself but as a creature of ego and not God he couldn't bring him to life. Sophia took pity on the creation and breathed life info Adam

Sophia, as in, the Greek goddess of Wisdom? Also, I don't know much on Yaldaboath as he doesn't appear in Tankah.

 

[pmmg]

Creating a golem is like creating a person which is like imitating G-d, so naturally, it isn't ethical

It would seem to me that creating story worlds and characters is pretty close to this as well. Just being an author has expanded my perception of what it must be like to be God on some levels. I am not sure what ethical boundaries I might cross in that creative endeavor. I would say the experience has been expansive and increased my own insight. Would a golem be much different than a Robot? It seems to me we imitate God in many facets, and would be close to paralysed if we tried to avoid it. If it were possible to build a golem, and animate it, I think there would be a host of ethical questions, but I feel we imitate God on many levels already. Are we not made in his image? I would think it is more the effort to discard or supplant God with our own assertions or power that would bring us into shady ground. I've a suspicion God must be a little accepting of efforts to imitate him. Course, in a story about a golem, that might be a great thing to explore. What does God think of all this golem making, and what are the effects of it on those who do it, those who experience it, and those who would oppose it.

 

[Ozonequeen]

The romance doesn't make much sense from the way you describe it but the idea that the female Golem is named after the hebrew name for Eve (Hava or Chava in terms of pronunciation) is quite interesting considering the "Adam was a Golem" idea. It's interesting how Hava is a bridge between the Golem of Prague (innocent-natured and created to serve a greater purpose) and Frankenstein (being made of human parts). Creating a golem is like creating a person which is like imitating G-d, so naturally, it isn't ethical (especially considering she is likely made of cadavers). I am curious how Hava tries to acclimate to New York life, can you share that? Also, I would like more information on the spirit itself. How did he come to be in mortal flesh and how does that make it different from us, who have souls in our bodies?


Sophia, as in, the Greek goddess of Wisdom? Also, I don't know much on Yaldaboath as he doesn't appear in Tankah.

So far in the story, she must be very conscious of everything she does.... Case in point, she just got a job in a bakery, thanks to her nature she works nonstop and does things very quickly and perfectly at first... To not draw suspicion, she begins choosing to make small mistakes... She knows what everyone wants, when she works at the register taking orders, she has to ignore the desires she knows comes from the customer and only listen to their words... It's exhausting for her. But being idol makes her crazy because she can't tune out the whims and wishes around her. She feels better when she works
It sounds like the Djinn is trapped in a human form by an iron cuff... He doesn't remember yet how that happened, I suspect more is involved. The Djinn are such a broad category of beings, some are like the fae and others are like demons... They were created before man and made of fire... So, Ahmed (the name he is forced to choose), can never immerse himself in water or his fire will extinguish... It is interesting to learn Hava is another name for Eve...
Yaldabaoth is their name for 'Yahweh'... Truthfully, I think it was their of reconciling the harsh God of the old testament with the God that Jesus told us to call 'Abba'
I thought I recalled hearing Frankenstein was a golem story...
PMMG, I think our stories are a gift from God... As you say we were created in His image including the power of imagination and innovation... I think we honor Him when we create any sort of art... Some might say using occult imagery or references is evil but I believe symbols have as much power as we assign them... The symbols can yield good or evil depending upon the heart and mind of the user at the time... How that fits in with the theory that some people sell their souls to evil for wealth and power I don't know... Perhaps, it's as simple as the phrase, 'It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of the needle than it is for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven'

 

[Archon of Cringe]

It would seem to me that creating story worlds and characters is pretty close to this as well. Just being an author has expanded my perception of what it must be like to be God on some levels. I am not sure what ethical boundaries I might cross in that creative endeavor. I would say the experience has been expansive and increased my own insight. Would a golem be much different than a Robot? It seems to me we imitate God in many facets, and would be close to paralysed if we tried to avoid it. If it were possible to build a golem, and animate it, I think there would be a host of ethical questions, but I feel we imitate God on many levels already. Are we not made in his image? I would think it is more the effort to discard or supplant God with our own assertions or power that would bring us into shady ground. I've a suspicion God must be a little accepting of efforts to imitate him. Course, in a story about a golem, that might be a great thing to explore. What does God think of all this golem making, and what are the effects of it on those who do it, those who experience it, and those who would oppose it.

I agree. Especially as I've begun to really delve into the nitty gritty details of rebuilding my Webnovel's world and story. I am not just making a drawing, I have to think about everything from the climate, the economy, government, and more all apply to the characters. The difference between stories and golems is that stories are fiction but a golem is a real being.

As for the golem being a robot, I was thinking something along those lines as well. A modern version fo a golem might be closer to mechanical than clay. In terms of stories where the golem was based off they were like people, but stereotypical golems are dumb and robotic, designed for specific tasks. It's interesting to play with; maybe a golem starts out robotic but as they learn and grow from the world they become more human. It's like the AI question except since golems are closer to people than machines it is much more reasonable for them to have intelligence.

So far in the story, she must be very conscious of everything she does.... Case in point, she just got a job in a bakery, thanks to her nature she works nonstop and does things very quickly and perfectly at first... To not draw suspicion, she begins choosing to make small mistakes... She knows what everyone wants, when she works at the register taking orders, she has to ignore the desires she knows comes from the customer and only listen to their words... It's exhausting for her. But being idol makes her crazy because she can't tune out the whims and wishes around her. She feels better when she works
It sounds like the Djinn is trapped in a human form by an iron cuff... He doesn't remember yet how that happened, I suspect more is involved. The Djinn are such a broad category of beings, some are like the fae and others are like demons... They were created before man and made of fire... So, Ahmed (the name he is forced to choose), can never immerse himself in water or his fire will extinguish... It is interesting to learn Hava is another name for Eve...
Yaldabaoth is their name for 'Yahweh'... Truthfully, I think it was their of reconciling the harsh God of the old testament with the God that Jesus told us to call 'Abba'
I thought I recalled hearing Frankenstein was a golem story...
PMMG, I think our stories are a gift from God... As you say we were created in His image including the power of imagination and innovation... I think we honor Him when we create any sort of art... Some might say using occult imagery or references is evil but I believe symbols have as much power as we assign them... The symbols can yield good or evil depending upon the heart and mind of the user at the time... How that fits in with the theory that some people sell their souls to evil for wealth and power I don't know... Perhaps, it's as simple as the phrase, 'It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of the needle than it is for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven'

That is interesting. She feels better when doing tasks, kinda like a robot.

 

[Jackarandajam]

Bearbear, I currently work in a Catholic school where they study the doctrine. It is true that generally speaking, some Christians will call anyone the devil. They are very specific about the who does what in the Bible and old Testament. I thought Satan first appeared in the Book of Job where he acted as a prosecutor, claiming that even the pious of men could turn from God. The serpent is never identified as Satan or the Devil but as a child that was the impression I was given. What I find fascinating is that the snake is later used to symbolize healing and Moses' staff can transform into a snake at will. Like, why would the staff turn into the very creature that symbolizes the deceiver in the book of Genesis? One of the things that always blew my mind is the commandment that says, "Thou shalt not put false gods before me because I, your God, am a jealous God,". Like what need does God have for jealousy? Or the other passage in Genesis where God says: "Let us make man in our image,". Who is us if its supposed to be God? I could go on and on. I'd ask these questions in school and get told it was just a way of talking.

Just finished a book called The Unseen Realm by a Michael Heiser. The man is a Christian, so his intention was to clarify, not undermine, the old testament.
He had the same questions as you mentioned. Basically he said the ancient Hebrew clearly says that God is THE Elohim, but there are many Elohim, allowed to rule different parts of the earth and referred to as "gods" several times in the Bible.
"Satan" is a title given at several times to different beings, meant to reference their position as "adversary" at that time.
He talks about the snake too, and why it was used by Moses, but I can't remember his take on it. I'll have to revisit it now that I know this thread is here.