Ask me about swords.

[Nighty_Knight]

I comment too fast. I often edit mine as well to add more details.

I'd say you're right about the cost effectiveness and durability, and I would add that an axe is also far easier to repair. As for manoeuverability, I think it's debatable. While there are certain things you could do with an axe that you can't with a sword, the same applies vice versa. Perhaps someone on the forum is into HEMA who could confirm or deny that point. Malik maybe?

In my opinion you both make good points. As for wielding, both are highly effective, and I think it depends on the user. I've competed against both and against someone better than yourself, you are equally dead. Axes are easier to defend against in my experience. But even in armor they hurt when they land and are deceptively fast. They are also used effectively for grappling at close range. (this just happened to me on Saturday) But with the negative that it's just as easy for the other person to grab the haft at close range. Swords are a little nastier to try to grab. Swords having the thrust factor make them pretty scary in my opinion, you need a lot more caution when closing distance than an opponent with an axe. Then there is halfswording if you are wearing armor, that can get around your gaps to stab you. Personally, in armor I would rather fight against a sword than an axe, with light or no armor, if rather fight against an axe than a sword.

 

[Devor]

In general though I'd say that a sword is rarely the best in any specific category. That wasn't the point of (most) swords. However, it is the most versatile weapon. It did everything fairly well, though you can almost always find a more specialized weapon that did specific things better.

I think time period matters here. There was a stretch where the Roman soldiers preferred the gladius, and it's hard to say it wasn't the ideal choice for their time, while armor tech was just getting off the ground. Sword and shield have always made a solid combination, even if spear and shield was usually preferred in an army.

The sword is also ideal for self-defense, as a backup weapon, and for displays of skill, which is why we have fencing and not spear fighting.

Controversial question on a thread about swords, but what is the more effective and efficient weapon, a battle axe or a sword?

If you mean a 1-handed axe, like you might see in the hands of a viking, I don't know how common they actually were among armies. The vikings used a bearded axe that was very effective for hooking onto shields and pulling them aside, which also makes it a rare case for dual wielding on the battlefield, as you could pull the shield with the axe then attack with a sword or another axe. But the vikings were pillagers who favored hit and run tactics on mostly unprepared settlements. If you lined up shoulder to shoulder like an army, it would get in the way of a good axe swing. If your enemies lined up in formation with spears, you'd struggle to get close enough for an axe. And while the axe has a lot of heft, and could smash through a wooden shield, I'm not sure if it's enough to reliably break through a metal helm or a good bit of armor. It's also more awkward than a sword or mace, so I don't think it would be preferred on horseback (although, rereading, I'm reminded of the Native with a tomahawk on horseback). Of course, if you conscript a bunch of peasants, I don't doubt some of them will bring an axe.

On the other hand, a two handed axe, which is to say a polearm, could easily kill by denting a metal helm or armor, and offer enough reach to attack over a shield even against a spearman. Eventually they added hooks that can trip or snare an enemy's weapon, beaks that punch through tougher armor, and spikes that can impale cavalry, resulting in advanced weapons like the halberd or poleaxe, which are widely considered the deadliest of their time. But, the big problem with polearms is that, without a big shield, you don't have much protection against arrows.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Controversial question on a thread about swords, but what is the more effective and efficient weapon, a battle axe or a sword?

Devor's right. The question isn't really so much which is better as it is what do you want to do with it? Hit someone else, generally, but in those three words is a world of hows and wheres and whens. Weapons are tools, and each tool has the job it was designed for and when it does that job, it's going to look pretty good. When it's not, it can look pretty lame and then shenanigans ensue.

 

[Mordred Lung Silver]

So, I have diagnosed Asperger Syndrome with swords as my special interest. What this essentially means is that I'm obsessed with swords, to the point of them being my default thing to think about, and I have spent years assimilating sword-related trivia.

Since swords are a staple of fantasy fiction, I thought I'd offer my expertise to the benefit of the community. I don't claim to know everything on the subject, but if anyone of you have a question regarding swords I'd be happy to try to answer it. Frankly, if you have a question about swords I can't answer, it's probably something I'll end up researching on my own anyway.

Oh, and I've also had some training as a blacksmith and know the basics of bladesmithing, so I may be able to offer advice in that area as well.

What types of swords would you like to see depicted more or less in fantasy fiction? I'd like to see fewer katanas and more nagimakis: fewer long swords and more estocs: fewer gladius and more dachian falxes, for example. Does the simplicity make it the protagonist weapon?

 

[Aldarion]

What types of swords would you like to see depicted more or less in fantasy fiction? I'd like to see fewer katanas and more nagimakis: fewer long swords and more estocs: fewer gladius and more dachian falxes, for example. Does the simplicity make it the protagonist weapon?

Not OP, but since OP wasn't active since 2013, I'll take the liberty of answering myself... and the answer is Roman spatha. One reason is obscurity, as it is much less popular than gladius - despite being around for potentially far longer. Second reason is its design - it is both simple and elegant at the same time, quite unlike e.g. a rapier.

 

[pmmg]

I'd say I am indifferent, but I think if I was going to use an estoc, I would have to define it for the reader. They'll probably wonder why I did not just say sword.

Heck, even the browser dictionary does not know what it is cause it flagged in red on my screen.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

I'd say I am indifferent, but I think if I was going to use an estoc, I would have to define it for the reader. They'll probably wonder why I did not just say sword.

Heck, even the browser dictionary does not know what it is cause it flagged in red on my screen.

Browser spell check is always a bit dumb. estoc - Bing

And no, fantasy readers will never ask you to dumb down the weapons, or really any details whatsoever. Never assume the reader is less intelligent than you or less invested in your worldbuilding and the stories you tell. Fantasy and SciFi readers are the ones who build huge fandoms and devote hour after hour and page after page playing in our sandboxes. I love it.

Also, and I'm sure I don't have to tell you this but in case someone needs to hear it - swords are not all created equal, and different swords do different jobs and are created to meet the needs of new techniques as they evolve. Just calling something "sword" is like saying, "Yeah, that really was a big gun. It was all bigly and stuff... right?" to an audience of gun nuts. Fantasy authors collect swords. Some of us live and breathe swords. We are expected to know swords, at least as far as knowing that when we make up our own designs, they can reasonably assume that it would work like that.

As for defining, I'm notorious for my exposition. I don't. You're either caught up or not, pull that seatbelt tighter. I also don't believe in giving the reader breaks. But, I do know that most authors and readers are kinder and more together than I am, so I do describe when it occurs to me that no one knows what's going on but me. This is a wee bit from a project in development. I like it because it's the first time I'd used a pair of katar, and they seemed appropriate. Katar are not common weapons, at least in the West, so I had to not only describe something unfamiliar, I had to describe how it could be used. And then there was the phooka...

~~

Ivy grinned. “There you are, Harvey.”

The phooka’s growl came from the depths of his great chest. “My name is Ainmire, bitch.”

She guessed he didn’t appreciate classic movies. “Come out and maybe we can talk about-”

The shadow seemed to explode at her as the phooka, in the form of a shaggy black wolfhound the size of a small horse, launched himself at her. Ivy ducked to one side, rolling away from his slashing teeth, his breath hot on her bare skin. She drew her katar as she rolled and lashed out at the other fae with the vicious double-bladed punch dagger, catching him across the mouth and winning both a yelp and precious distance as he leapt away.

Ivy gained her feet and drew her second katar. “No more drowning tourists in the bayou, Harvey. You’re under arrest.”

The phooka shook his head, spraying a fine circle of blood against the stones. “I do what I want!” With that he shifted forms, swelling into a massive bull, and charged.

With no room to maneuver Ivy flung herself to the side, ducking and rolling as the stampeding fae rumbled past, kicking up dirt and stones in his wake. He turned and charged again as she found her feet, but this time she was ready.

Ivy returned the charge with one of her own, running right at the oncoming bull with her blades crossed before her. At the last second she cast them aside and summersaulted high into the air, the bull’s head passing beneath her, and caught the horns in both hands. Before the phooka could react Ivy used her momentum, combined with her weight and her considerable faerie strength, to whip around his head, horns jerking his head around, until the extreme twist resulted in the crunch of breaking bone as his spine snapped. His legs collapsed as if his strings had been cut, and Ivy rode the great bull to the ground.

~~

Top image is just a nice little chart that I find useful, and the bottom is a katar.

 

[Prince of Spires]

Funny thing about swords is that many people simply refered to them as swords, and that many of the distinctions and classifications are modern. And some of the tiny nuances people like arguing over were irrelevant to those swinging them around to kill other people. Irrelevant as in "this sword is 3cm taller than that one, with a slightly longer handle, so it's a longsword and not a bastard sword" or whatever. It was just a sword. Also, plenty of the names we give to the things today were either given to other swords or not really used at all.

A. E. Lowan what's the (historical) use case for a katar? It looks like an unwieldy blade that would be less useful than a dagger with a normal hilt.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Funny thing about swords is that many people simply refered to them as swords, and that many of the distinctions and classifications are modern. And some of the tiny nuances people like arguing over were irrelevant to those swinging them around to kill other people. Irrelevant as in "this sword is 3cm taller than that one, with a slightly longer handle, so it's a longsword and not a bastard sword" or whatever. It was just a sword. Also, plenty of the names we give to the things today were either given to other swords or not really used at all.

A. E. Lowan what's the (historical) use case for a katar? It looks like an unwieldy blade that would be less useful than a dagger with a normal hilt.

The katar is a traditional dagger style originating from the Indian subcontinent and seeing use until really fairly recently. Don't think of it as a dagger with a traditional Western hilt held in the palm. The katar seems to have proliferated and comes in a wide variety of shapes and number of blades that can either spread out to attack or collapse together to carry. The katar is literally stick the pointy end in the other man basic, and then there's a lot of traditional fighting styles piled on top of that. The hilt is held in the fist with the blade(s) coming down over the fist, hence the moniker "push dagger." Think Assassin's Creed, only actually functional.

 

[pmmg]

A Katar looks like that thing that would be picked last from the weapons rack. Better in theory, less efficient than most everything else.

 

[Vaporo]

A Katar looks like that thing that would be picked last from the weapons rack. Better in theory, less efficient than most everything else.

It looks like it would be a huge pain to hold straight. I feel like it would constantly want to rock forward and backwards in your grip. I struggle to imagine using something with that form factor just to cut vegetables, let alone as a weapon.

 

[pmmg]

It looks a little like the thinking was, if you can punch someone, why not punch them with a blade?

Maybe it has other uses. But...while the thinking seems sound, the practicality would not make it a great choice when there are other options.

Course, anything can happen. It will still suck to get stuck by one.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

It does look unwieldly, but it was also popular enough that there are literally dozens of different takes on the design spread across India. It could have been the cool factor, and there certainly were weapons that only had that going for them, but in a world lit only by fire, where these weapons were made by hand, cool wouldn't cut it when the cost of materials and raw physical energy spent are accounted for. No, someone knew how to kill with these things, and they were really good at it. And then they taught everybody else.

 

[Prince of Spires]

Actually, they look very bloody deadly. Stab that into a person in most places in their body, and they will not walk away alive. A blade that broad is bound to hit some vital part, especially because you can get a lot of force behind it, wielding it in that grip. Stab it into someone's side or stomach, and they'll probably be dead in under 5 minutes.

A Katar looks like that thing that would be picked last from the weapons rack. Better in theory, less efficient than most everything else.

Thing is, inefficient weapons didn't really exist. Or rather, weapons that required a lot of work to create and were inefficient didn't. At least not in large quantities. Of course you'd get the occasional wall-hanger sword some rich king had just to show off. But if your life depended on the weapon in your hands, then you'd go for the most efficient you could afford. And those were the weapons that became popular and stuck around.

Only thing is, most weapons had very specific uses and reasons to exist, and were formed by the circumstances in which they were created. Both in terms of available resources and stuff a person would face on a battlefield (other weapons and armour).

So if katar were around for a long while, then they must have been very good at what they did.

They look like something you could wield in your off-hand, for when you could close in with an opponent, and like something which could punch through some thinner / weaker types of armour.

 

[pmmg]

Actually, they look very bloody deadly.

I'll let you be the one who takes it from the weapons rack.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

I'll let you be the one who takes it from the weapons rack.

You said "weapons rack" and I can't help myself. I'm also a terrible showoff and this is one of my favorite bits from Faerie Rising: The First Book of Binding. It's a bit long. I have no sorries.

~~

“I have a very high opinion of him, your majesty. He’s the finest young man I’ve ever met.” Which was entirely true, and the Faerie king would taste the truth in her voice.

“Then let him meet my challenge. I must know what quality of Hero I am dealing with.”

Brian looked up. “I don’t know that, myself, but I’ll meet your challenge, your majesty.”

Winter closed her eyes for a moment, unsure of who to pray to. No one was listening, anyway.

Ceallach smiled and spoke to the crowd. “It should be a challenge worthy of a true Hero…” his nod to Winter was slightly mocking, “but not too onerous.” His courtiers shouted out suggestions, ranging from trial by combat which made Winter’s breath shiver with fear to games of skill and chance the names of which Winter had never heard. The stakes were high, of that Winter had no doubt. Finally, Ceallach’s smile widened as an idea seemed to occur to him, and he drew a courtier close to whisper in her ear. She grinned at Brian and slipped away to carry out her master’s bidding.

Apprehension made Winter shiver.

Ceallach turned back to his courtiers, a showman’s smile on his face. “Our young Hero is lacking something.” He made a show of looking Brian over. “It’s not strapping good looks. Those he has in abundance.”

Brian’s cheeks darkened and the fae around him laughed.

Ceallach raised a hand. “No, no, it is good he is modest. A vain Hero is insufferable.” He walked around Brian, the two men of a height even if the muscular Brian was much broader. “No, he is modest, he is handsome, I dare say he is hardworking?” He looked to Winter for that, and she nodded agreement. “So, what is he missing?”

“Experience?” Winter suggested, hoping to get Brian out of this.

Ceallach waved her off. “We all start somewhere. He starts here. Today.”

“A weapon?”

The suggestion came from a small sidhe girl who tugged her king’s tunic and his smile changed to one of tenderness and indulgence. He stroked her dark hair with a gentle hand. “Yes, my clever pet. A Hero needs a weapon.”

The little girl beamed up at him.

Ceallach waved his arm toward a doorway. “And here we have a weapon fit for a Hero!”

The courtier returned with a brace of guards who between them carried a loaded weapons rack that trailed thick cobwebs like streamers. The guards set the rack down in the clear space before their king and bowed low before stepping back.

Something about this struck Brian as strangely familiar, but he couldn’t put his finger on what. He looked up to find the Faerie king watching him closely. What was he looking for? “What sort of challenge is this?”

“A simple one,” Ceallach spread his arms. “For our neophyte Hero, a choice.” He looked to Brian again. “Choose wisely.”

Brian looked at the rack and hesitated. “Or what?” The way Lana talked this place wasn’t far off from being like the streets. There would always be a catch.

Ceallach chuckled and dropped his arm around Winter’s shoulders. “Else you forfeit your fair maiden.”

“What?” Winter tried to squirm away, but Ceallach held her close.

Brian reached for Winter but Ceallach’s guards, bristling with weapons, stepped in between them. He’d have to choose one of the cobweb-covered weapons from the rack if he wanted a hope of not getting cut to ribbons getting her back. He turned back to the king. “Choose a weapon. That’s all?”

“Choose wisely.”

Wisely. Okay, so he needed to choose a particular weapon. Fine. Brian turned back to the rack.

Seven weapons rested there. Two elaborately carved bows, a spear-looking thing, and four swords of various sizes from a monster nearly the size of the spear to a dainty blade barely the length of his forearm. But it was a middle-size sword with a lion’s head on her crossbar that arrested his attention.

Her?

Brian crouched down and gently tore away the cobwebs, revealing a fairly simple sword with minimal decoration outside the elegant lion’s head which he could now see graced both sides of the pommel. The metal was strange, all silvery-gold and shimmery under the moonlight, and Brian felt a strong urge to feel her weight in his hand. He looked up at Ceallach. “Can I draw her?”

Ceallach looked pleased. “Her, is it?”

Brian flushed again. “It seems right to me.”

Ceallach grinned. “Then her it is. Draw her, let’s see what happens.”

Brian swallowed and stood, suddenly nervous. What if he was wrong? He looked over the other weapons, just in case… but no, none of them affected him the way she did. So, he picked the lion-headed sword up by her scabbard… sheath…? and brought her blade out into the air with a ringing hiss of steel.

“Greetings, Hero. Long have I awaited your touch.”

Brian gasped and looked around, only to realize the voice was in his head. “I… Hello. It’s nice to meet you.”

“Is she speaking to you, young Hero?”

“Yes.”

Ceallach looked delighted. “Ask her name. She has refused to tell all who asked, even they who forged her.”

“May I ask your name?” It felt rather strange, speaking to an inanimate object… and also very right, as if he’d been waiting for this his whole life.

“I am Courage. I have been waiting for you.”

 

[Prince of Spires]

I'll let you be the one who takes it from the weapons rack.

I'd probably pick a rapier instead. Probably with a dagger for my off-hand.

Not that I know how to use it, but I would love to...

 

[Malik]

I'd probably pick a rapier instead. Probably with a dagger for my off-hand.

Not that I know how to use it, but I would love to...

Given its temporal location in the development of European martial arts, the rapier--in the right hands--was the deadliest weapon in existence at the time. It was an absolutely perfect melding of form and function given the circumstances within which one would expect to wield one.

 

[Prince of Spires]

Given its temporal location in the development of European martial arts, the rapier--in the right hands--was the deadliest weapon in existence at the time. It was an absolutely perfect melding of form and function given the circumstances within which one would expect to wield one.

Definitely. It's one of the things that makes it an awesome weapon, and one I'd love to learn If I ever create a setting that has Death as a character, he'll be wielding a rapier, not a scythe. Deadly precision, not some random harvesting.

 

[Aldarion]

Definitely. It's one of the things that makes it an awesome weapon, and one I'd love to learn If I ever create a setting that has Death as a character, he'll be wielding a rapier, not a scythe. Deadly precision, not some random harvesting.

The point of the scythe is precisely that Death spares nobody, however.