At what point does naming countries, cities, places become too clichéd/cheesy?

[Ireth]

Fictional Place Names:
-Narnia
-Andalasia
-.........?

Moria might also count, though it's technically a compound name ("mor" + "ia" = "dark chasm" in Sindarin).

 

[studentofrhythm]

So I'm guessing you got really bored in geography class? If real places have names like this then what is wrong with fictional places having them? I think, if not overdone, it lends a touch of credence to the story.

I love geography. You misunderstand my point and attempt to put words in my mouth. The place names you cited all are English names from Greek, or coined in English using that old suffix borrowed from Greek. Some of them share the same or a similar name in their national languages, others don't. Look 'em up on Wikipedia and see how many have different names in their native languages.

What you call your country there and what I call it over here are often different and that has political meaning that fantasy should be quick to exploit. Greek and Roman language, culture and literature held a privileged place in this world and that's why there are so many "-ia" names in this world. If there are "-ia" names in a fantasy world, I want to know an explanation that fits in that world's history. If all you want is a flavor, then I'd concede that "-ia"s would give a pretty good high medieval -- or classical -- era flavor.

Narnia's over 30 innit? Fantasy was still breaking into the mainstream. I don't mind seeing this question of names being given such short shrift back then, though as Ireth reminds us, Tolkien's diligence really gives little excuse. Even so, I recognize that other authors had other more pressing things on their mind and followed the convention they were familiar with from history.

Maybe few others get annoyed when they see more recent fantasy creations take the same well-beaten path and stick the familiar suffix on, but to me it shows that the author has not bothered to look closely -- maybe not at all -- at something that matters to me as a reader.

Helleaven, Saigonnus, what I did in naming some of my countries was to just pick another syllable to stand in for "-ia" as a suffix. That's what I would suggest: make up some simple sound strings. Look at conlanging resources if you want to go any further, but just a little bit of effort like Saigonnus gave for naming those Ys places can go a long way.

Or just put "-land" on everything, throw in some "-marks" or even "-reichs" for variety at least. Or why not "-stan"? I think if I picked up a novel and all the countries had "-stan" names I would be tickled. I'd love to know if anyone's ever done that.

 

[Alva]

Helleaven, Saigonnus, what I did in naming some of my countries was to just pick another syllable to stand in for "-ia" as a suffix. [- -]

Or just put "-land" on everything, throw in some "-marks" or even "-reichs" for variety at least. Or why not "-stan"? I think if I picked up a novel and all the countries had "-stan" names I would be tickled. I'd love to know if anyone's ever done that.

And then, why not to throw even the suffixes away? I can't help myself but when I look at "-land" -ending I immediately see how any such word would translate into my native tongue. Nothing bad as such but “-land” (in Finnish “-maa”) -endings convey me this feeling of children storybooks and Fairylands (although in some cases it works very well).

On the other hand, I realize I'm seeing things from my non-native English speaker perspective. For instance "Finland" in Finnish is simply "Suomi". "Uleåborg" (-borg is Swedish and stands for castle) is in Finnish "Oulu". But then of course there are other cities and towns such as Järvenpää (Lake's End) or Karigasniemi and Rovaniemi ("-niemi"=point, peninsula) that include geographical hints, so to say.

(Finnish has more likely the tendency to include suffixes in surnames, I think, since Finnish surnames are relatively new constructions. There seem to be endlessly people with “–nen” -ending names such as Järvinen, Vuorinen, Koivunen, Laaksonen, Jokinen… (järvi=lake, vuori=mountain, koivu=birch, laakso=valley, joki=river) The "nen" itself doesn't mean anything as a word.)

Just pointing out. Not trying to affect anyone's decision but only hoping to add into the amount of total inspiration. The variety @studentofrhythm mentioned is something I personally can subscribe to, that's all.

 

[deilaitha]

@ Studentofrhythm--
You are right--I did overreach with my conclusion and I put words in your mouth, for which I am very sorry. I definitely see your point now and to be honest I'm not sure why I was being such a jerk to you. (I am not putting words in your mouth here--rereading my post that it MY opinion of how I treated you.)

I mentioned Narnia because it was the only fantasy land I could really think of that ended with -ia. Now I am giggling at the thought of "Narnistan." I like your suggestions for name development and the idea of alternative suffixes. Of course, -land, -mark, and -reich are all decidedly German, which I assume is why you suggest this would just be a nice change from -ia, right?

Once again, sorry for being impolite in my post. Thank you for being courteous to me in spite of my rudeness.

 

[Helleaven]

studentofrythm:

As you look for the middle east and central asia, you'll see that -istan suffix is everywhere. So it's about the place where you are looking to the subject. I am using generally -ion suffix for my important area names. There is a race that I created, I called them Estra(nor), (-nor is suffix for plural) which I like very much; their countries have very long names, such as Rúlamorduniva and Filianaserdoriva. It's intentionally made that way. As you see, the suffix for their countries is -iva. Another race uses -ril, such as Amnastril.

"-istan" is actually not just a suffix. It means city in a language but I don't know which. Arabic maybe? In the word Istanbul, it is used as prefix.

I do understand what are you saying, but to completely dismiss of using -ia is kind of exaggarated for me. -ia has its own charm, of course if your all cities and countries are named as "xxxia", "yyyyia", "zzzzia", it's kind of sucks. But unless it is overused, I think it's not a bad thing do use it.

 

[Ireth]

Tolkien uses something similar in his works. The major kingdoms/countries of Middle-earth mostly end in -dor, meaning "land": Gondor, Mordor, Eriador. Rohan is an exception, presumably because it was formerly a province of Gondor before acquiring its own king.

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

Maybe few others get annoyed when they see more recent fantasy creations take the same well-beaten path and stick the familiar suffix on, but to me it shows that the author has not bothered to look closely -- maybe not at all -- at something that matters to me as a reader.

I don't think most people get annoyed, or even remotely care. Not that it's not valid for you to care–whatever floats your boat–but most people like stories because of the characters; background details like the linguistic development of place name suffixes are pretty low on the priority list of most authors and readers. It certainly doesn't hurt, but it's usually not a priority.

If you do find yourself consciously annoyed by this kind of thing, it's a sign that you're reading books that aren't engaging enough to make you not care about minor details like whether or not the place names make perfect linguistic sense.

Yeah, I'll admit that some books are very heavy on world details at the expense of character development, and there are readers (mainly younger) who are okay with that–I certainly remember obsessing over world details in my favorite fiction when I was a kid, and not having much conscious awareness of character development or overarching themes. If your goal is to cater to that audience by producing a work that does it, more power to you. But I think–I hope–that most authors are more focused on creating characters who resonate, not linguistic details that fit into a comprehensively consistent framework.

 

[studentofrhythm]

@delaitha, No problem!

 

[JonSnow]

I'm a proponent of making the world as believable as possible. Ask yourself this. If you are passing through a small town, what do the people there call it? If a character stops in the town to interact with the folk there, he is most likely going to learn something about the place. In that case, it deserves a name.

I can see you not bothering with the name if you pass through some village on a horse, and never interact with the townsfolk. I actually like that... passing through an anonymous, insignificant place that doesn't warrant telling the reader the name.

 

[RebekahAimee]

Terry Pratchett named one of his cities "Bonk," which made sense to the people there since they spoke a different language.

 

[Ireth]

Thought of another "-ia" placename today: Terabithia, in Bridge to Terabithia. There's also a Terabinthia somewhere in the Narnia books, but I think that's just a coincidence. In any case, Narnia came first. ^^

 

[Saigonnus]

Not to mention Disney's "Fantasia"... kind of fantasy oriented.

 

[Caliburn]

I reckon there's something to be said for not bothering with trying to come up with "sophisticated" names. After all, its very possible for invented names to backfire and seem overly contrived, while the thing that first came into your head will seem strangely more genuine, especially if the power of your storytelling hits them in the gut.
I guess there is a difference between "authentic" and "different". I've read books by highly regarded authors that didn't seem to bother at all with made-up names.

"Paradise" might be cliche. It might also be perfectly functional, and flexible since everyone has their own idea of paradise.

Mostly I'm just plain over having to be different for its own sake. It seems profoundly redundant when what you are trying to do is tell a story. I think the practical function of a name--giving you a quick impression of a thing--can be useful, but any expectation of just having to make it different is silly unless your intent is to make the thing stand out. If everything in your world stands out, then nothing does.

 

[SeverinR]

If you have nature and use english,
the nature based names are safe:
Brookwood, Ashglenn, Riverdale, Oakridge, etc.
No matter what planet you base your story on, if there is are the things in the name, you can name.
If there is no such thing as an ash tree, then Ash glenn might not work, unless there was a big fire, and they named it after this.

 

[Saigonnus]

If you have nature and use english,
the nature based names are safe:
Brookwood, Ashglenn, Riverdale, Oakridge, etc.
No matter what planet you base your story on, if there is are the things in the name, you can name.
If there is no such thing as an ash tree, then Ash glenn might not work, unless there was a big fire, and they named it after this.

In one of my projects, the Druids tend to use names contrived this very way... one of their main settlements is "Ash at the Ford" (orginally Ashenford for a gaming campaign) and is literally in the massive boughs of oversized ash trees (they grew them that way) near a river with a ford. They "grow" chambers into the trunks of all the trees (basically rerouting the veins of the trees into columns within the chambers) for living space or whatever.

 

[Alva]

I created the map many years ago and have forgotten much of the history I wrote for the area but if I remember correctly, the Ys comes from the name of the kingdom that disolved (it was something like Ys'alamiri or some such) and they simply kept the names of the principal cities the same in rememberance of their heritage and culture. Those principal cities became the "capitals" of the seperate regions and they enjoy a tentative peace even amid the occassional assassination (in their view; if a regent in such a hard land is incapable of defending themself, or can't provide an adequate protection for themself, they deserve to die so someone new and possibly more capable can take over). That attitude is part of the reason they haven't been able to reunite as a larger kingdom again.

Think of the area almost like a persian flavor, their cities with low walls, round domes on many of the larger buildings and slanted roofs on the rest to keep the snow from building up. They typically built with granite blocks instead of sandstone (which should be obvious why) and doors and windows tend to be round or at least rounded at the top with thick, crude glass to keep out most of the weather. The people are pale and typically wear their hair long and usually dress in thick woolens for commoner and wealthy alike, though generally the more wealthy you are, the more layers you wear, even incorporating bearhide or seal skins into the clothing for added warmth and waterproofing.

Still, sounds quite logical to me. Of course I know nothing about your story but preserving the city names sounds like the rulers hope to appear as protectors of the cities and especially protectors of everyday lifestyle, customs and traditions of the common citizens. Well, instead of showcasing their power by “updating” naming systems, for instance. I may be completely wrong but the immediate image with the details provided serves me a picture of such sort. : ) Also, the point that ruling wars are fought through selected assassination seems to tell something interesting about the nature of the culture, too. Strongest (and most careful ones) survive, apparently. I guess the citizens are quite used to the leaders climbing up and falling down, then.

And I must say I like the vivid picture you paint with words. I only wonder do they use wood at all in their buildings, though. Are the buildings for instance lined inside with wood? Might be expensive, of course, if no forests are to be found too close, but in the middle of winter and snow wood is delightfully warm material. Plus, if I make a swift return back to the topic on this thread so that I won’t anger anyone, I’ve this far liked the names you have mentioned here and there. Solid names with underlying history all of them, it seems.

I’d say a mere variation of different names can lower the cliché rate. Longer and shorter names; names with various endings, meanings and phonetics; and more traditional and exotic names mixed etc. are usually enough to satisfy me, at least. One name with a potentially cliché appearance might be able to slip in and not wake my full consciousness. Only if the names resemble too much each other or one of the names stand out from the rest without any logical explanation, my concentration on the story may begin to rift.

Though, of course, if the story has only few characters the situation might appear more troublesome. I’d at least make a check that I knew why I pick a certain name for certain character. Do I really, for instance, want to emphasize certain character’s noble birth and wealth with equally rich and long name?

If I’m to give my personal opinion: -ia and –th-sounds here and there - especially when not present in the same name - don’t really bother me. I’d only hope the names wouldn’t be like “Q98Yi” or “89” or “86” etc. outside space opera. I have grapheme-colour synesthesia so I automatically associate most letters, numbers and words (names included) with their respective colours in my mind. Bunches of symbols either tend to seem colorless to me or get nicely mixed together. (May sounds strange, but I gave my very personal approach on the subject, here. Plus, different kinds of synesthesias are far from rare, actually. ": )

 

[Alva]

In one of my projects, the Druids tend to use names contrived this very way... one of their main settlements is "Ash at the Ford" (orginally Ashenford for a gaming campaign) and is literally in the massive boughs of oversized ash trees (they grew them that way) near a river with a ford. They "grow" chambers into the trunks of all the trees (basically rerouting the veins of the trees into columns within the chambers) for living space or whatever.

I actually have one pretty similar place in my world... and still very much different, luckily. First of all I have no druids and there is no ford. And only one tree.

Nevertheless, druids living inside huge trees sound like intriguing to me. Maybe because, first of all, I find druids interesting and, secondly, I'm fond of well written nature imagery. I'm also quite friendly towards names derived from nature.

 

[robertbevan]

geez louise. i have a hard enough time trying to think up names that sound like they could be names of places (and not stupidly hard to pronounce) and then looking them up on google and hoping i don't come up with any hits.

 

[Saigonnus]

And I must say I like the vivid picture you paint with words. I only wonder do they use wood at all in their buildings, though. Are the buildings for instance lined inside with wood? Might be expensive, of course, if no forests are to be found too close, but in the middle of winter and snow wood is delightfully warm material. Plus, if I make a swift return back to the topic on this thread so that I won’t anger anyone, I’ve this far liked the names you have mentioned here and there. Solid names with underlying history all of them, it seems.

Like much of building at the time in medieval europe and parts of the middle east, general construction is stone since it is easily accessible and mined by prisoners, so the labor costs are very low and that makes masonry the single most important occupation in the city. They do use local (or imported) wood inside the buildings, usually thick roof beams to help support the weight of the stone roof and also to give a place to hang lights. Local wood is pines, fir and some of the heartier conifers and are often lathed into wall panels with animal skins or hay stuffed in behind (for the poorest people) for insulation during the bitterly cold winter months and fitted panels are put into place over the windows to keep the glass from breaking during the frequent storms. Some of the more exotic woods (those from temperate climates etc...) are very expensive and only the most wealthy of citizens can afford any and that usually for decoration over the regular local wood paneling or for decor around the house.

I appreciate your comments about my names and truth be told, it's taken years of work (off and on) to develop the world to what it is now.

 

[Saigonnus]

I actually have one pretty similar place in my world... and still very much different, luckily. First of all I have no druids and there is no ford. And only one tree.

Nevertheless, druids living inside huge trees sound like intriguing to me. Maybe because, first of all, I find druids interesting and, secondly, I'm fond of well written nature imagery. I'm also quite friendly towards names derived from nature.

Thank you very much for your kind words and it gives me a since of gratification to have someone appreciate my work.