Be honest, how ‘beautiful’ is your protagonist?

[Finchbearer]

No...?

To be clear, I don't know Dark One's circumstances and have no intention of presuming, but if you're writing a story that heavily features LGBT themes then a character saying that the male body disgusts them and their own body disgusts them then that's basically a Chekhov's gun to have them be an egg. As a writer the coincidence amused me.

Okay. I don’t know enough about your reference to Chekhov - I’m just not that clever.

My take from that was; whatever our personal feelings, we can potentially remove ourselves enough to write characters outside our own life experience. And I didn’t want to comment on something that seemed personal. Who am I to judge? Self image is a complex thing.

 

[pmmg]

I cant say as I have noticed a reaction to characters being too short. I suppose, I generally expect them to be standard for their race. If they were not, I would expect it to be part of the story.

I do sometimes notice when characters are presented as too tall. As heroes over six feet tall would seem very uncommon in earlier periods of time. But, not impossible. If someone is really that tall, I suspect everyone would notice.

The MC's I write mostly about is considered shorter than average, but not shockingly so. The second MC is considered slightly taller than average, but again, not in an unlikely or impossible way.

 

[Mad Swede]

My male MCs are never described as beautiful but most are athletic and physically talented. The MCs of my last two novels (speculative fiction / sci-fi) are both described as ordinary looking and both have a lack of confidence with women. My female MCs however tend to be attractive in an unconventional way. One is described (in a crime novel) as looking a bit like an alien pixie.

I was a little disturbed when a female reviewer of my latest book described it (among other things) as catering to the sexual fantasies of young males. It was a very positive 5 star review but that comment shocked me as it certainly was not what I set out to achieve. I wonder what that therefore says about me and my underlying narrative?

It might say more about the reviewer. I remember one review of my first book, where the reviewer commented that there were no sex scenes. Now I know that we Swedes are said to be liberal in these things, but there were no half-naked men or women on the cover and no mention was made of romance or lust in the blurb on the back either. So what did they expect? Is it really that hard to use your imagination as a reader and fill in a few details?

 

[Fyri]

Okay. I don’t know enough about your reference to Chekhov - I’m just not that clever.

Hold on hold on—I just wanted to clarify. Do you know what "Chekov's Gun" means or did you mean you don't know enough about the LGBT connection?

Also—

to have them be an egg.

This phrase amuses me and I will not let you get away with it. What a way to say trans...I think? XD <3

 

[Aldarion]

I would recommend, and you could be doing this already but I thought I'd put it out there just in case, not 'villainizing' power, if that makes sense. I think compulsion as a term has a negative connotation which could make you more inclined to cast that side in a poor light, but there are plenty of situations where power might be needed.

Not necessarily villainous but dangerous - as in, potential for loss of control, disfiguration and so on; but nevertheless still sometimes worth the price.

 

[Queshire]

This phrase amuses me and I will not let you get away with it. What a way to say trans...I think? XD <3

It's a term that's relatively common in the meme-ier side of LGBT stuff. Specifically, it means a trans person that hasn't realized they're trans yet.

 

[Fyri]

It's a term that's relatively common in the meme-ier side of LGBT stuff. Specifically, it means a trans person that hasn't realized they're trans yet.

I love this. I have family and friends that are trans and I'm always entertained by new tokens. XD

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

Chekhov's gun is a sort of guide to minimalist writing. Basically everything that's mentioned in a story must have some relevance to the plot. So the gun in question should only be mentioned if at some stage it's used in the plot.

But back to the OP's original query. Attractiveness is important. In most cases your MC is usually going to be someone you as the reader would want to identify with. Although that comes with some serious caveats. Someone mentioned Tolkien and Samwise and yeah he is definitely a hero anyone should admire. But so too is Aragorn. And as at least used to be the case, most fantasy readers were male. Times change, and I'm not sure how female readers would empathize with / identify with either of them. As to how they deal with female MC's I don't know. But I remember reading somewhere that one of the reason Twilight did so well with women was that the main character isn't really described as being anything outstanding, making it easier for a lot of young women to identify with her. Don't know whether she was tall or short - or hell, even what her name was. And I don't know if height matters so much to women. But it's much more core to a man's self identity I think.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Ban]

I don't agree with the premise here Psychotick. Just as one doesn't have to be a dog to appreciate the characters of Buck and White Fang in the stories of Jack London, nor a rabbit to read Watership Down, height is equally irrelevant to me (a tall man) as pretty much any other characteristic is. A story is driven by plot, setting and prose, not self-inserts.

 

[Queshire]

I love this. I have family and friends that are trans and I'm always entertained by new tokens. XD

To connect it back to writing, the simplest way to write a character as an egg is to include stuff which, once the character realizes they're trans (aka cracked their egg), they and/or the audience can look back on and go, "Oh, yeah, that was a hint." For example, there was one story I read featuring a character that was generally rather grumpy, but ended up getting along surprisingly well when working with a bunch of female scientists on a project.

 

[drock88]

My MC isn't attractive, almost the opposite. A couple other characters in my story would be considered attractive but mostly I prefer to write about pretty average looking people, it just feels more... grounded to me?

 

[Fyri]

I don't agree with the premise here Psychotick. Just as one doesn't have to be a dog to appreciate the characters of Buck and White Fang in the stories of Jack London, nor a rabbit to read Watership Down, height is equally irrelevant to me (a tall man) as pretty much any other characteristic is. A story is driven by plot, setting and prose, not self-inserts.

I agree. I grew up loving the Warriors Saga by Erin Hunter. Main character was a male cat. I am a female human. XD I want to be Samwise and I want to date/be Aragorn. Empathy and Identity isn't tied to gender or appearance. And not all people relate to attractive people. I do, cause I'm drop-dead gorgeous~ (jkjkjk XD), but I know many men and women that identify better with "average" or "ugly" looking people. "The outcasts can't be drop-dead gorgeous" (even if some of us are (jkjkjkjkjkjk )).

 

[Fyri]

But I remember reading somewhere that one of the reason Twilight did so well with women was that the main character isn't really described as being anything outstanding, making it easier for a lot of young women to identify with her. Don't know whether she was tall or short - or hell, even what her name was. And I don't know if height matters so much to women. But it's much more core to a man's self identity I think.

Cheers, Greg.

Also, another thing to note here—Many people have called Bella Swan (Twilight MC) a Mary Sue. She is so bland anyone can just put themselves in as a self insert.

I liked the line "I don't speak car," from the MC, but much rather wanted to identify more with Jessica (talkative best friend) or Alice (quirky older sister of Creep-o Vamp Boi).

Often time YA female MCs are described as "Not like other girls" or "plain" and it is annoying to no end, as I've seen from other readers and writers. Not every girl can be "not like other girls." Most girls can figure out what "trope" they might fit into too. Beauty comes in many ways, and I'd say that is a far more effective way of describing someone, depending on how they/the narrator views them.

But also, yes. Most women don't want to be tall. People might describe them as freakish or manly or giraffe. Just as men hate being call short or midget. Social norms can be cruel. At the same time, some women want to be taller because it can be elegant and powerful. Galadriel was meant to be the most gorgeous and she was quite tall.

It all depends on how you, shall I say, wear the dress~ XD

 

[Finchbearer]

No, I had no idea about the connection of eggs and being trans. Being born again once ‘hatched’, it’s cute.

On a separate note on female plainness…among my favourite novels include female protags who are known to be older or plain, including Jane Eyre, Anne Elliot from Persuasion and the unnamed narrator from Rebecca. Even Elizabeth Bennet is not a known beauty, and all take the long way around towards love.

 

[The Dark One]

No...?

To be clear, I don't know Dark One's circumstances and have no intention of presuming, but if you're writing a story that heavily features LGBT themes then a character saying that the male body disgusts them and their own body disgusts them then that's basically a Chekhov's gun to have them be an egg. As a writer the coincidence amused me.

It's also a bit of a joke.

I have a tendency to speak in extremes... which some find charming.

 

[Orc Knight]

But also, yes. Most women don't want to be tall. People might describe them as freakish or manly or giraffe. Just as men hate being call short or midget. Social norms can be cruel. At the same time, some women want to be taller because it can be elegant and powerful. Galadriel was meant to be the most gorgeous and she was quite tall.

I also seem to recall, not all that far back, a certain vampire lady who got a lot of calls for 'please step on me' from the gaming community. Again, it all comes down to personal taste.

And also, as one of the short guys, I don't much mind it. I could probably hang out with a group of dwarves with only a slight height advantage and almost keep up with the drinking.

 

[Finchbearer]

I don't agree with the premise here Psychotick. Just as one doesn't have to be a dog to appreciate the characters of Buck and White Fang in the stories of Jack London, nor a rabbit to read Watership Down, height is equally irrelevant to me (a tall man) as pretty much any other characteristic is. A story is driven by plot, setting and prose, not self-inserts.

I mean, from my perspective as a cantankerous old amphibian, I really identify with Toad of Toad Hall.

 

[The Dark One]

I mean, from my perspective as a cantankerous old amphibian, I really identify with Toad of Toad Hall.

I love Toad to bits (and recently re-read WITW).

In fact I frequently sing his songs when walking.

The motor car went poop poop poop
As it raced along the road
Who was it steered it into a pond?
Ingenious mister Toad

 

[psychotick]

Hi Ban,

I'm not sure we're talking purely about story. We're talking about the interaction of the story with the audience. I'm guessing that for you being on the tall side of the equation putting yourself in the shoes of a shorter character is psychologically easier, because even as you're doing it a part of your core identity is always telling you you're tall. It's like a rich man putting himself in the shoes of a poor man when reading a book. It doesn't mentally affect him the same way it would someone who's struggled for money.

But again, I have no data to back up this. It's just my gut feeling.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Penpilot]

I don't know if height matters so much to women. But it's much more core to a man's self identity I think.

I think for stuff like this, it depends on the individual and what their baggage is. I'm 5'5. I may have a plethora of baggage, but being insecure about my height isn't one of them. I don't think there's an issue for me about relating to people who are taller. There's always pros and cons to things. I've heard tall people talk about some of the issues they face, being too big to fit in an airplane seat, needing to overcome people being intimidated because of their size, etc. And as a smaller person, I face challenges too, too short to reach this, finding cloths that aren't too big/too small.

As someone who's played sports all their life, where size matters quite a lot, I've never been overly concern with my size. You control the things you can control, and to use any mental energy being concerned about height is IMHO wasted focus.

Bringing it back to writing, I remember reading American Gods, and Shadow the MC of the story is big, and not once did I think I'm having trouble relating to them because of that attribute. If anything. reading about a physically imposing character does what IMHO a lot of writing is supposed to do, give someone insight into what it's like to be someone not like themselves. And then, finding the common ground. Yes people are different, but at the same time, they're the same, too.

Like I mentioned above, being short has it's pro andcons and so does being tall.