Be honest, how ‘beautiful’ is your protagonist?

[Fyri]

It's like a rich man putting himself in the shoes of a poor man when reading a book. It doesn't mentally affect him the same way it would someone who's struggled for money.

Mm! I think here we come to the situation that readers all come for their own reasons and desires. Is it important for a main character to be attractive?

One angle is to say, yes-- if the reader wants to pretend to be the MC and visualize themselves as better than they are (a poor man imagining themselves rich).

Another angle is to say, no--if the reader wants to see themselves as they are as still worthy (and they don't imagine themselves as attractive).

There are many other angles to consider as well. Some people don't care about the MC at all and rather want to enjoy watching side characters.

Though, thinking about it, perhaps you have a point with the Twilight bland MC. I've also heard critique for Harry Potter this way (Shoot, was it earlier in this thread or on a podcast?). Beyond being "sassy" what was distinct about Harry? When I was in a college course that studied the books, no one identified with, nor chose Harry as their favorite character. And yet, the books soared in popularity. *Cringes at the notions this brings*

As it is art, perhaps everything and nothing is important, depending on how it is done and what the target audience needs.

 

[Finchbearer]

I love Toad to bits (and recently re-read WITW).

In fact I frequently sing his songs when walking.

The motor car went poop poop poop
As it raced along the road
Who was it steered it into a pond?
Ingenious mister Toad

I don’t know why exactly, but maybe the bucolic Edwardian English countryside following the lives anthropomorphised woodland creatures is my happy place. It’s very relaxing to read.

 

[The Dark One]

I don’t know why exactly, but maybe the bucolic Edwardian English countryside following the lives anthropomorphised woodland creatures is my happy place. It’s very relaxing to read.

When I was a very young man in an obscure rock band, I wrote a song called Piper At the Gates of Dawn.

You can imagine how disgusted I was when I realised Pink Floyd had beaten me to the title by about 20 years.

 

[Finchbearer]

I'm not sure we're talking purely about story. We're talking about the interaction of the story with the audience. I'm guessing that for you being on the tall side of the equation putting yourself in the shoes of a shorter character is psychologically easier, because even as you're doing it a part of your core identity is always telling you you're tall. It's like a rich man putting himself in the shoes of a poor man when reading a book. It doesn't mentally affect him the same way it would someone who's struggled for money.

But again, I have no data to back up this. It's just my gut feeling.

Cheers, Greg.

I think this is a good point, and possibly speaks of privilege, as in it’s easy to dismiss a physical attribute such as height as irrelevant when it’s not a personal issue or a means for personal discrimination.

I do think that for men it might more of an issue, and there is definitely the connotation of being a shorter male as being somehow less than, or emasculating in some way or another. And even for me as a petite woman, most men are going to be taller than me and so maybe a smaller woman and a taller male is going to be somehow more compatible from an ancient biological perspective. We as humans have parts of our brains we cannot control. (Only relevant if your heterosexual).

When we talk about different fantasy races, using the Tolkienesque ones as an example, dwarves are meant to be incredibly stubborn, proud, strong, capable on a battlefield and incredible craftsmen - but they are of shorter stature than the race of men and elves, so without that being a purposeful rhetoric, that still implies that the dwarves are somehow making up for not being taller.

Orcs on the other hand are bulky, muscular, grotesque, born fighters, and the spawn of evil - as far as Tolkien created them anyway.

But I mentioned Legends and Lattes before, and we follow a female orc while she opens on coffee shop - she knows that she is seen as strong and fearsome, and she has to own that identity, but the writer cleverly brings us another perspective and sort of humanises a fantasy race that would otherwise be dehumanised.

And when we talk about representation, maybe height is something we need to keep in mind?

 

[Aldarion]

Orcs on the other hand are bulky, muscular, grotesque, born fighters, and the spawn of evil - as far as Tolkien created them anyway.

No, they are not.

Most orcs are short - about the height of dwarves, somewhat skinny and malnourished. Only Uruks are noted as being strong and muscular, and about "man-height" - which is noted as being unusual for an orc. And even they may not actually be "bulky" as in bodybuilders.

I believe that "bulky, muscular" orcs started with either D&D, Warhammer or Warcraft.

 

[Finchbearer]

No, they are not.

Most orcs are short - about the height of dwarves, somewhat skinny and malnourished. Only Uruks are noted as being strong and muscular, and about "man-height" - which is noted as being unusual for an orc. And even they may not actually be "bulky" as in bodybuilders.

I believe that "bulky, muscular" orcs started with either D&D, Warhammer or Warcraft.

That’s true, although as you pointed out, orcs have since removed themselves from the original Tolkien model that they quite differ in height and muscularity

 

[Ban]

At the end of the day I suppose this all comes down to how one approaches fiction and the characters therein. For me, characters are vehicles through which the plot, setting and prose are explored. I don't identify myself with them, but view them as the separate viewpoints they are. It doesn't matter in that case whether or not I have anything in common with a POV. They can be ugly or beautiful, strong or weak, tall or short, kind or mean, and so on and so forth. As long as their viewpoint serves to unveil an interesting plot or setting, and the prose is enjoyable, I am satisfied.

 

[JBCrowson]

My male MCs are never described as beautiful but most are athletic and physically talented. The MCs of my last two novels (speculative fiction / sci-fi) are both described as ordinary looking and both have a lack of confidence with women. My female MCs however tend to be attractive in an unconventional way. One is described (in a crime novel) as looking a bit like an alien pixie.

I was a little disturbed when a female reviewer of my latest book described it (among other things) as catering to the sexual fantasies of young males. It was a very positive 5 star review but that comment shocked me as it certainly was not what I set out to achieve. I wonder what that therefore says about me and my underlying narrative?

Perhaps it said less about your work than about her preconceived idea of young males' fantasies.

 

[The Dark One]

Perhaps it said less about your work than about her preconceived idea of young males' fantasies.

I dunno. She's very smart, an artist herself, and I loved everything else she said about the book.

So her comments re young men's fantasies give me much to think about.

 

[skip.knox]

>Most orcs are short
Orcs are exactly how I say they are. Same goes for trolls, elves, dwarves, ogres, and even humans.

But I do have to realize that every reader of Altearth tales is going to come to a given story with their own preconceptions about each of these. As well about castles and kings and cities and peasants. It's up to me to tell the story in such a way that they will believe my version, at least for the length of the story.

 

[Aldarion]

>Most orcs are short
Orcs are exactly how I say they are. Same goes for trolls, elves, dwarves, ogres, and even humans.

But I do have to realize that every reader of Altearth tales is going to come to a given story with their own preconceptions about each of these. As well about castles and kings and cities and peasants. It's up to me to tell the story in such a way that they will believe my version, at least for the length of the story.

We were discussing specifically Tolkien there...

 

[Finchbearer]

We were discussing specifically Tolkien there...

I don’t think I used the word tall

 

[Aldarion]

I don’t think I used the word tall

To me, "bulky" implies some degree of height. Basically, trolls are bulky - dwarves are just stocky.

No idea why, but that is just how my brain handles it.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

5”6 isn’t short! One of my male protagonists is of average height at maybe around 5”8 rather than being super tall. Also, just sayin, short / petite doesn’t mean someone is lacking in anything, and someone who is below average height doesn’t have to make up for being shorter in stature with a bunch of other stuff either.

I’m also gonna say…Thorin Oakenshield is hot!

Just for you, my dear. And OMG, sing it, sister.

 

[Fyri]

To be fair though, these beings do have certain attributes that allow them to be called what they are. This is fantasy and you can do what you want with your world, but how far can you bend the notion of vampire before they are no longer a vampire? How far can we deviate from orcish origins or norms before they are arguably not actually orcs?

Food for thought?

 

[A. E. Lowan]

To be fair though, these beings do have certain attributes that allow them to be called what they are. This is fantasy and you can do what you want with your world, but how far can you bend the notion of vampire before they are no longer a vampire? How far can we deviate from orcish origins or norms before they are arguably not actually orcs?

Food for thought?

Tanya Huff did some interesting things with elves and dwarves in her military scifi.

 

[Queshire]

To be fair though, these beings do have certain attributes that allow them to be called what they are. This is fantasy and you can do what you want with your world, but how far can you bend the notion of vampire before they are no longer a vampire? How far can we deviate from orcish origins or norms before they are arguably not actually orcs?

Food for thought?

That sounds like a challenge. =0

 

[Orc Knight]

To be fair though, these beings do have certain attributes that allow them to be called what they are. This is fantasy and you can do what you want with your world, but how far can you bend the notion of vampire before they are no longer a vampire? How far can we deviate from orcish origins or norms before they are arguably not actually orcs?

Food for thought?

Could be fast food or a feast with that.

And it also plays into the beautiful protagonist parts too. Cause plenty of people will use them as MC's. And I mean, I went with beautiful, yet terrifying elves in at least one of worlds. Using the sort of vampire game face used in Buffy. And orcs, going from at times fairly racist caricatures to the the buff boi's and She Hulk sorts is it's own trip. Then you got the 40k ones, the violently funny ones that dip back to the original portrayals. Some stories give them horns like goats or a variety of skin colors (though usually on the darker side of the spectrum).

I'd say deviating though, is what is going to happen regardless. It's the march of time and how we perceive the old. Like many, I got tired of orcs being always evil and have created several variations in my writings. And far from the only one. And to circle back to the OP, sometimes they can be pretty too (if you like tusks).

And to drop back to the food metaphor, as fantasy writers we do have a veritable feast with this sort of thing. Just, well, are we going after the salads, the fish, the sandwiches, the waffles or all the other ones? Food...mmmm.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Could be fast food or a feast with that.

And it also plays into the beautiful protagonist parts too. Cause plenty of people will use them as MC's. And I mean, I went with beautiful, yet terrifying elves in at least one of worlds. Using the sort of vampire game face used in Buffy. And orcs, going from at times fairly racist caricatures to the the buff boi's and She Hulk sorts is it's own trip. Then you got the 40k ones, the violently funny ones that dip back to the original portrayals. Some stories give them horns like goats or a variety of skin colors (though usually on the darker side of the spectrum).

I'd say deviating though, is what is going to happen regardless. It's the march of time and how we perceive the old. Like many, I got tired of orcs being always evil and have created several variations in my writings. And far from the only one. And to circle back to the OP, sometimes they can be pretty too (if you like tusks).

And to drop back to the food metaphor, as fantasy writers we do have a veritable feast with this sort of thing. Just, well, are we going after the salads, the fish, the sandwiches, the waffles or all the other ones? Food...mmmm.

Being writers, we all knew this was going to devolve into a food discussion.

 

[Ban]

To be fair though, these beings do have certain attributes that allow them to be called what they are. This is fantasy and you can do what you want with your world, but how far can you bend the notion of vampire before they are no longer a vampire? How far can we deviate from orcish origins or norms before they are arguably not actually orcs?

Food for thought?

They can deviate rather a lot, considering the term "Orc" can just as much harken back to William Blake's mythology as Tolkien's worldbuilding. See the relevant Blake deity: Orc (Blake) - Wikipedia Words are malleable, and new lineages of interpretation can quickly form.