Being a woman and writing dark fiction--it's complicated

[Twook00]

There's an interesting discussion happening today regarding women authors being less visible in the fantasy community than men (especially when writing darker fiction).

The discussion was kicked off by author Teresa Frohock who advised that most women might have more success publishing under a gender neutral identity.

In response, Mark Lawrence (Broken Empire trilogy) created a poll asking the following question: If the cover of Prince of Thorns had the author as Mary Lawrence would it have changed your decision to buy the book?

Thought you folks might have some insight.

Edit: Mark has posted some results on his blog.

 

[BWFoster78]

Whether a book is written by a man or a woman plays absolutely no role in my decision making process. If the book sounds interesting to me and the reviews indicate that I may enjoy it and the sample engages me, I buy it. Truthfully, I don't even look at the author's name for a book that I just happened across.

 

[Twook00]

The results of Mark's poll indicate that 20% of those who voted would have been less likely to have bought the book. Considering how hard it is for a book to get off the ground, this is disappointing.

 

[Devor]

The results of Mark's poll indicate that 20% of those who voted would have been less likely to have bought the book. Considering how hard it is for a book to get off the ground, this is disappointing.

The problem with these surveys is that they make a big deal about what they're testing so you don't get a real response. It can be misleading. People lie to feel better, or exaggerate qualities they normally don't even think about, or answer the survey in disproportionate numbers. People check a box to send a message. A scientific surveyor would stand in a mall and give people book blurbs under one name or the other, and see which people respond more favorably to when they have no idea that you're testing the author's gender. Chances are the outcome would be different - you would think worse, but really it could go either way.

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

The problem with these surveys is that they make a big deal about what they're testing so you don't get a real response. It can be misleading. People lie to feel better, or exaggerate qualities they normally don't even think about, or answer the survey in disproportionate numbers. People check a box to send a message. A scientific surveyor would stand in a mall and give people book blurbs under one name or the other, and see which people respond more favorably to when they have no idea that you're testing the author's gender. Chances are the outcome would be different - you would think worse, but really it could go either way.

Exactly. This poll is unscientific and its results should be ignored. The question itself is valid ("Does the author's purported gender affect potential reader interest?") and it'd be interesting to see it studied.

Everyone likes to think they're gender-blind, but I would not be remotely surprised if many or even most people have unconscious biases about author gender. I like to think I don't, but it hasn't been put to the test.

 

[BWFoster78]

Exactly. This poll is unscientific and its results should be ignored. The question itself is valid ("Does the author's purported gender affect potential reader interest?") and it'd be interesting to see it studied.

I went back and read the blog post referenced by the OP. Speaking of unscientific...

The author starts out with a halfway decent methodology of trying that establishes some degree of correlation between a woman being the author of the work and the use of descriptions that imply romance/feelings/relationships are involved in the book. Then, the author goes off the rails. The article continues basically from there with no reasoning given to conclude that publishers only look at women for works that involve relationships.

First, even if you prove correlation, there's a long way to go to prove causation.
Second, I'm not sure the methodology was rigorous enough to prove the thesis.
Third, I don't exactly hold blog posts to rigorous scientific standards, but a little clue as to how you get from the correlation to the conclusion would be beneficial.

Everyone likes to think they're gender-blind, but I would not be remotely surprised if many or even most people have unconscious biases about author gender.

If the author's thesis is correct and female authors are more likely to have character relationships drive portions of the plot, then, since I prefer such stories, I should be seeking out female authors. Truthfully, though, unless I'm searching for a known author, the identity of the author is completely irrelevant.

Not the least of the reasons is that is pretty durn easy to use any pseudonym you want. Is my name really Brian Foster? Am I really a guy?

I am. But how do you know?

 

[Caged Maiden]

You know... I'm tempted to print four book covers, in sets, one like Princess of Thorns, written by a man and another by a female, then another book cover looking like Prince of Thorns and written by a male and a female and actually do a real test. thanks for this interesting post.

I feel weird saying it, but I'd probably lean towards a male author if I really wanted a dark fantasy and assume the female version would be "lighter". It feels weird to say that, because I write some pretty dark things when I'm in the mood, but I think I've bought into the cycle of which Mark Lawrence speaks.

I've considered the gender bias a lot and even write articles for MS under A. Howitt. Is it wrong? I'm proud of writing things that make some people cringe, but I'd rather use just a surname to avoid any gender bias initially and let people know once they already like what they're reading, it was written by a female. But then, in my life, I've always been involved in interests that draw mostly men. I wrestled on the boy's team in high school, I was an avid gamer (D&D, Vampire the Masquerade LARP and Werewolf, and let's not forget Magic and other stuff like that). Most of my friends were boys. I studied Auto Body in college and even as an adult, am an archer and swordfighter. While my interests are one thing, and yes, most of my companions in them are male, I also tend to think differently than most women I know. In romantic relationships, inner thoughts, emotions... I've kinda always related better with males.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

hmm... This is very interesting. I agree with Brian, the original blog posts are not very scientific, but they do raise some interesting questions. We are both women, and we do write character and relationship-driven stories, but our stories are also very dark (though not "grimdark," I don't really know what that is, but we can get pretty funny at times). I honestly don't understand how it's possible to go truly dark without digging deep into the hearts of our characters. And "relationships" aren't limited to romantic relationships - they encompass relationships between parents and children, between friends, and between enemies, and we love to explore the potentials they hold. I'm honestly not sure how much our gender effects how we write, or how we appreciate stories (because we do write what we want to read), but I will admit that men and women really are wired differently, even as I admit that neither my partner nor I tend to think or react along the same lines as "traditional" women - but does anyone, I wonder?

As for names, as everyone can see we choose to write under a gender neutral pen name. Part of the reason is because we want to avoid being pegged as light or fluffy or "paranormal romance" writers at a glance, just because we're women writing urban fantasy. But part of it is also because there are two of us, and one of our names is ultra-common, and the other name is ultra-rare, and we would just as soon have one, fairly unique but still easy to remember and spell name on the cover. "A. E. Lowan" fits that need. So, it's all about marketing.

 

[Devor]

I think men and women tend to be wired a little differently on average . . . but if you're looking at a female author who wants to write grimdark, you're not looking at the "average" woman, so I don't see any reason to make presumptions based on those averages. And as A. E. Lowan sort of mentioned, if you dissect all the differences between the genders, real or imagined, there are some that might even be useful writing grimdark. I also don't see a point in being too aware of those differences on a regular basis - they're really only useful for socio-psychological purposes, which might include marketing or character development, but not taking book reviews.

 

[Chessie]

Gender bias isn't something I think about. I select the stories I read based on story, flow, writing style, etc. Men and women are wired differently but I think all of us as individuals are. I'll be publishing under my real name which is rare yet feminine. I hope to dazzle readers with my stories. I don't worry about being labeled as a softie or whatever. I've always kept in mind that, someday when I have published, I'll do my best to show my readers who I am. I don't expect to be judged on account of my sex, only in the work I'm providing.

Just because I'm a woman doesn't mean I'll write romance or fluffy things. I love writing creepy stories and I think that being female does give me an advantage in writing about motherhood or having female leads. Stereotype doesn't bother me and I'm not afraid of it.

 

[Svrtnsse]

Might as well post here in this thread as well.
I think there's definitely a bias, but I think it's largely a subconscious one. If you ask someone the question about whether they'd prefer a certain type of book to be written by a male or female author they would think about it and almost certainly reach the conclusion it doesn't matter. If however, they didn't think about it, they may have reacted differently. This is all theory - I don't have anything to back it up other than my belief that people aren't as open-minded as they like to think.

People, I believe, regardless of gender will have general opinions about members of the opposite sex and what their strengths and weaknesses are. I think that's probably just natural and I think it forms the basis of our biases. Whether we let those biases control our actions or if we make a conscious decision to override them is up to us as individuals though. For some it will be easy and for yet others the thought will never even occur.

A counter example I mentioned in the related thread Phil just posted (here: http://mythicscribes.com/forums/chit-chat/11240-whats-name.html) ismy own WIP. I'm a male writing a light and happy-fluffy novel centered around romance and relationship issues. I'm sure these are themes more closely associated with female writers than male ones (no, I didn't check up on that, it's just based on personal bias) and even if you may not personally agree I'm sure you can imagine how a lot of people would see it that way too (women write romance, men write war).

Would I be reaching higher sales numbers if I used a gender neutral or female pen name? I won't, because I'm happy with my name as it is, but it's interesting to consider in comparison to a female writer changing their name when writing grimdark etc.

 

[Devor]

I think there's definitely a bias, but I think it's largely a subconscious one. If you ask someone the question about whether they'd prefer a certain type of book to be written by a male or female author they would think about it and almost certainly reach the conclusion it doesn't matter. If however, they didn't think about it, they may have reacted differently. This is all theory - I don't have anything to back it up other than my belief that people aren't as open-minded as they like to think.

It might be true, but you really cannot assume anything about the poll results based on that notion. Once you've called attention to the author's gender, you've introduced biases that are far greater than the one you're trying to measure.

 

[Svrtnsse]

Once you've called attention to the author's gender, you've introduced biases that are far greater than the one you're trying to measure.

Yep, that's part of what I was getting at. By raising the question you're ruining the opportunity to get an unbiased answer.

Maybe one way of doing it would be to present a list of potential titles couple with author names and then ask what titles someone would be most likely to buy. Then you could do a second poll where all the names had been gender swapped and see if there was a measurable difference. I guess it's all academical though.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

I've been going through and re-reading the blog posts today, both the OP here and the one down in Chit Chat, and realized I never read the comments. Some of those are making my hair stand on end! according to one of the commenting authors in the Teresa Frohock post,

I think the toughest incident I've had (beyond endless people asking, "How on earth did you write a male protagonist?" -- as if gender was more trouble than a change in species) was when I was at NYCC and there was a fantastic book signing set up where Myke Cole, Benedict Jacka, and I sat in a row and signed 100 free copies of the first books in our series for anyone who got in line. It was very cool, but I'll say this -- it was really hard to see male readers who were happy to have their books personalized by Myke and Benedict, but the moment (the *moment*) they laid eyes on me, they said, "Oh, why don't you address it to my mother/sister/aunt". Because my gender was enough to convince them that they wouldn't enjoy it, even though I was writing in the exact same genre and with most of the themes as the man beside me.

Yikes! I just don't know how to react to that.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I don't understand that kind of thinking. Further, I can't put any credibility in the idea that a writer may be better suited to write about a particular aspect of humanity due to their gender. The idea that women can write better about relationships or motherhood, or than men can write a better fight scene is absolute hogwash.

A gifted writer should be indistinguishable from another gifted writer, at least concerning their ability to get into characters. If I can't get into the head of a female character I'm not a very good observer of life, and I'm not a very good artist in general. Artists should be capable of understanding their characters, how they'd react to any situation. My body will never experience childbirth, but it's never had a piece cut away by a broadsword either. Still, I could write about either.

I'd say if your writing is able to be easily identified as coming from a male or female, you've got a lot of growth needed as an artist. As a reader, you'd be blinding yourself by assuming that artists can be defined by gender. It's ludicrous.

 

[buyjupiter]

A counter example I mentioned in the related thread Phil just posted (here: http://mythicscribes.com/forums/chit-chat/11240-whats-name.html) ismy own WIP. I'm a male writing a light and happy-fluffy novel centered around romance and relationship issues. I'm sure these are themes more closely associated with female writers than male ones (no, I didn't check up on that, it's just based on personal bias) and even if you may not personally agree I'm sure you can imagine how a lot of people would see it that way too (women write romance, men write war).

Would I be reaching higher sales numbers if I used a gender neutral or female pen name? I won't, because I'm happy with my name as it is, but it's interesting to consider in comparison to a female writer changing their name when writing grimdark etc.

If I read your work under a gender neutral name, I would automatically assume you were a woman. Not because of the subject matter (i.e. light fluffy stories dealing with relationships), but because you've managed to write from a woman's perspective so well that it's hard to remember that it's just great writing skills, not intimate first-hand knowledge of women's perspectives. Once you've read enough badly done portrayals of inner-monologue for women characters...you start assuming that anyone who gets it right must be a woman. (Joe Abercrombie surprised the pants off me when I read Best Served Cold. His portrayal of Monza is just so right.)

 

[Svrtnsse]

This is the nicest thing I've read all year. Thanks. <3

 

[Chessie]

I LOVED Abercrombie's portrayal of Monza! That was the first novel of his I read and he hooked me through great characterization. And he's a perfect example of what T.Allen is talking about. I hope my post didn't come off as hey, I can write about motherhood better than a man because I've experienced it. I meant it as just a life experience I understand but there are many, many others that I don't and my gender has no relevance to those.

I'm somewhat oblivious to gender bias in my daily life. Therefore, its not something I think about when I'm reading stories or writing them. I'll be happy getting a following of readers regardless of whether they are male/female or care if I'm a woman. That doesn't matter to me and I agree with Svrtnsse in that these sorts of questions shouldn't even be brought up. I bet most people don't think of that when they browse through books at the bookstore/reading device.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I hope my post didn't come off as hey, I can write about motherhood better than a man because I've experienced it.

I didn't take it that way. I was only using that as an example of an act men can't physically perform, but can still write about.

 

[Chessie]

Ha ha well hey, I've never cast a magical spell either so...yeah. XD