Bending the rules

[Enthods]

To be quiet honest, I'm one to notice that if a story resembles something I've already heard of then I don't want to read or write it. By bending the rules, I'm saying that an interesting story comes from in the head and something new. Unfortunately to me the fantasy genre is taken up by white male leads. Have you ever noticed how the sign of evil is dark skinned creatures. I'm beginning my journey on a new series of writing that I hope to turn these cliches on it head. So I have two questions for you. Do you find that something original and outlandish to be interesting and something worth reading? And do you find in your readings and writings that you have a majority of white male characters, if so why?

 

[BWFoster78]

Do you find that something original and outlandish to be interesting and something worth reading?

Most people on this site will tell you that being original is a Good Thing. They will also tell you that having a diverse cast of characters is a Good Thing.

I can't really speak to the latter, but it seems the advice I find from people making a living at writing is more along the lines of: if you want to sell a lot of books, write a book as close to possible as the bestsellers in your category.

So what's your goal?

If you're a hobbyist and are writing for the passion of it, what does it matter what we think? Write that which is your passion to write.

If you really want to sell books, just write anything because the first step is to hone your craft, and that takes years of writing.

Then you can decide if you want to be original (perhaps better chance of hitting the lotto by defining a new paradigm) or if you want to a more likely path to selling solid numbers by replicating the best seller list.

Thanks.

Brian

 

[Nimue]

Hoo boy, have we had this conversation before. Originality and diversity have an innate appeal--to me, at least--but they don't guarantee a good book. For the novice author, gathering some old themes and tropes to your breast can be a better way of getting things done, rather than trying to fight them all off in favor of something completely original. I think diversity can be worked into anything, though, and I love reading echoes of old stories told by new voices and perspectives. Personally, my stories are full of women and I'm consciously working to include more people of color and LGBTQA* folk. It's been a rewarding experience so far.

What are some of the ideas and directions you're considering?

 

[DeathtoTrite]

Do you find that something original and outlandish to be interesting and something worth reading? And do you find in your readings and writings that you have a majority of white male characters, if so why?

To the first question-- yes, assuming it is also well-written, with carefully thought out plot. Basically, originality is great-- but its icing on the cake. Originality is not a substitute for more fundamental skills.

To the second question-- no. I have... seven named white characters total currently. Two haven't even been met, one is a villain, two are super-minor, one is the foreign queen, and one is actually an older, white man who is also a main character.

I have my story set currently in a country that resembles Ottoman Empire/ Mongolia under Dayan Khan and Mandukhai. When the characters reach a country that is whiter this will change of course.

Really, I don't think its good when people try to force minorities into a story because "it's diverse." I am a huge fan of Ottoman and Mongol history, so drawing influences from there was natural and enjoyable. But the quality of the book is most important.

 

[skip.knox]

There is nothing intrinsically interesting about white male leads or non-white leads, of either (or any!) gender. Crappy books can be written either direction. So can brilliant books. This is a non-topic for me.

 

[Russ]

I enjoy originality of all sorts for sure. But not just for its own sake, or shock value. So I like original but am not so big on outlandish.

The majority of my reading is dominated by white leads. I think that simply reflects the market.

My writing is all white, but with plenty of powerful and central female characters. That is a function primarily of the setting, and secondarily my honest recognition that I don't have the insights or skills to write genuine characters of colour. I would never want to guess or assume anything about their experience, and while I am confident I could research those topics quite well, my research time is eaten up by other projects related to my and my wife's writing right now.

Having said that, if you have an interest in writing non-white, non-male non CIS leads, you should run out and read everything that Nalo Hopkinson has published. She represents these types of characters brilliantly.

 

[Garren Jacobsen]

For me there a few overarching considerations before I even think about drilling down to diversity and originality when considering quality. First, and foremost is story, is it good. Second, I consider character motivations, are they believable. Third, I consider the writing quality, is it clear. After getting through those three layers I believe the book is good. Anything beyond that is just dressing.

 

[X Equestris]

I usually don't read, watch, or play things that I haven't heard positive reviews of by other people. That saves money. So original or not, if it captures my interest and the reviews are generally positive, I'll think about picking up a work.

As for the race and gender of my leads for each story, I would end up having mostly white female leads, but that's because most of my work has been focused on fleshing out one character and her story. If you looked at it the individual number of protagonists, you would find a roughly even split between male and female. Most are white, probably somewhere close to two thirds. That's mostly because I have been focusing on one geographical area in my fantasy world, which is overwhelmingly white. When I've moved outside of that area, people are of whatever group that lives in the new area.

 

[Bropocalypse]

My stories tend to focus on female characters by default. That is to say it's just the starting point when I invent a character. If I had to give a single reason why, it'd just be out of preference.
That said, there really is no such thing as a completely original idea, in the same sense that there's no such thing as an original ingredient to a meal. But originality isn't what anyone really looks for in a story, I think. What's truer is sincerity and legitimacy, and mastery of execution. And if you still want something 'original,' you have to combine older ideas into new ones, or find ways to bridge between seemingly unrelated ones. That leads to things that are interesting, which is all anyone can really ask of you.

 

[WooHooMan]

Do you find that something original and outlandish to be interesting and something worth reading?

"Something" is pretty broad but sure, I mean, what isn't worth reading.

And do you find in your readings and writings that you have a majority of white male characters, if so why?

Yes but also, I don't really care. As long as the character (and more importantly, the story) is good, they can be any gender or race they want to be.
I imagine that the reason for the lots of white male characters is because most of the writers I read are white males. Because most - not all but most - of the fiction I absorb comes from the Anglophonic/western world where white men traditionally produce most fiction and tend to be the most represented and influential demographic in society.

The story I got going now has a black lesbian as the lead. And I'm a little worried that people will think I'm trying too hard to be "diverse" or whatever since my main character fits into three "minority" demographics. I also think that people might say that I can't write this kind of character since I'm not a lesbian. That doesn't bother me but y'know, it could happen.

Also, I think it's a little...not-right that you describe white male leads and evil dark-skinned creatures as "rules". I get what you're trying to say but still, I object to that.

What's truer is sincerity and legitimacy, and mastery of execution

On an unrelated note: I'm going to use "Master of Execution" for my band name.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I also think that people might say that I can't write this kind of character since I'm not a lesbian. That doesn't bother me but y'know, it could happen.

Don't let that worry you. I'm not a murderer, but some characters I write are stone-cold killers.

As long as you represent characters as unique individuals & not two-dimensional stereotypes, you'll be fine. Sexuality, race, and gender are small aspects of a character's whole. They certainly aren't defining characteristics, just contributors.

 

[Gryphos]

Do you find that something original and outlandish to be interesting and something worth reading?

Oh absolutely. I love originality. Obviously, it's better to be well-crafted and derivative than original and shitty. But when it comes to the subject of originality and quality I always find myself asking, is it too much to ask for both? I want both! I expect both.

And do you find in your readings and writings that you have a majority of white male characters, if so why?

I always strive to break away from the pervasive straight white male default in my writing. In fact, in my last novel I was about half way through my second round of editing when I thought "hold on ... the main character doesn't necessarily have to be white." And he didn't, so I decided to change his ethnicity. It took a bit of tedious work to alter all the physical descriptions of him and stuff, but it was worth it just to add that little bit of representation, especially in a main protagonist.

As to women, I always try to make sure there's a substantial amount. In my current WIP I did a count of all the main characters and their sexes and found that there were four men and two women. So I reckoned "hey, why not change one of the men to a woman?" So I did, and now it's more equal. It might have been more difficult to implement the change if I wasn't still in the planning stage.

One thing I've also made an effort to do is to combat what I've dubbed the 'always male nameless'. This is basically when in a story all the nameless one-scene characters (the random passerby, the dockworker, the messenger, etc.) are almost always male. I found that strange, so in my stories when these nameless characters show up, I try to get an even mix of men and women. Case and point, in one scene in a past WIP the MC asks for directions from a dockworker. I originally wrote that dockworker to be a dude, but then I got thinking and changed them to a woman. Just little things like that I think can help.

 

[WooHooMan]

Don't let that worry you. I'm not a murderer, but some characters I write are stone-cold killers.

As long as you represent characters as unique individuals & not two-dimensional stereotypes, you'll be fine. Sexuality, race, and gender are small aspects of a character's whole. They certainly aren't defining characteristics, just contributors.

Hey, I've never doubted that I can write this character. I just think other people will assume I can't.

"hold on ... the main character doesn't necessarily have to be white." And he didn't, so I decided to change his ethnicity. It took a bit of tedious work to alter all the physical descriptions of him and stuff, but it was worth it just to add that little bit of representation, especially in a main protagonist.

As to women, I always try to make sure there's a substantial amount. In my current WIP I did a count of all the main characters and their sexes and found that there were four men and two women. So I reckoned "hey, why not change one of the men to a woman?" So I did, and now it's more equal.

I don't mean to tell you to change your process or whatever - write whatever you want - but these attitudes always bothered me.

Do you ever say to yourself "well, this character doesn't have to be black, so I'll make him white". It seems weird to make a character a specific race just because they could be. It strikes me as almost patronizing. And if a character's race is only skin-deep, I'd hardly call it "representation".
That same thought process extends to gender. Like you shouldn't change a character's sex because you feel like you need to have a symmetrical cast or whatever.
I almost feel like you're doing the right thing for the wrong reasons.

But I want to stress that I'm no authority on the subject and you do whatever works for your story. I'm just saying that adding "minorities" for the sake of adding minorities strikes me as - I honestly can't come-up with a better term - not-completely-good.

 

[MineOwnKing]

Unfortunately to me the fantasy genre is taken up by white male leads.

Hold the phone.

Are we living on the same planet?

Bustle

Best Sci Fi Books with Female Main Characters (607 books)

https://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/female-protagonist

Top 25 Fantasy Books for Women

 

[DeathtoTrite]

Hold the phone.

Are we living on the same planet?

Bustle

Best Sci Fi Books with Female Main Characters (607 books)

https://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/female-protagonist

Top 25 Fantasy Books for Women

I'm pretty sure the fact these lists exist shows that there is a preponderance of white male leads. Admittedly, I haven't read much fantasy beyond the more famous books, but there at least white male leads are huge-- this is not to say there is anything wrong with a white male lead, or you should feel obligated to make the main character a minority for no other reason to be diverse, but the fact remains it is by far the largest denomination in the genre.

 

[MineOwnKing]

I'm pretty sure the fact these lists exist shows that there is a preponderance of white male leads. Admittedly, I haven't read much fantasy beyond the more famous books, but there at least white male leads are huge-- this is not to say there is anything wrong with a white male lead, or you should feel obligated to make the main character a minority for no other reason to be diverse, but the fact remains it is by far the largest denomination in the genre.

I suppose you could be right if you added in all those white men turning into bears that need brides.

 

[Garren Jacobsen]

I suppose you could be right if you added in all those white men turning into bears that need brides.

Can there be 7 white men and they're all brothers?

 

[BWFoster78]

If you like female protagonists, you should try the superhero genre (listed under fantasy at Amazon). Prior to Christmas vacation, I went through the top sellers and bought the first five on-topic books that I hadn't read and that had tolerable writing. All five had female protagonists. I didn't really notice until I started comparing them in my mind in thinking about which ones I had liked the most, and I was like the one with the girl who, wait ... they all had girls.

 

[cupiscent]

Hold the phone. Are we living on the same planet?

Bustle

Best Sci Fi Books with Female Main Characters (607 books)

https://www.goodreads.com/shelf/show/female-protagonist

Top 25 Fantasy Books for Women

First link takes as key references: Guardians of the Galaxy, a movie where despite the female characters having the strongest emotional story connection to the villain, the white male character is the hero who defeats him; and Outlander, a romance and therefore a "women's story". It further states: "Doctor Who has not featured an episode written by a woman since 2008. Season 5 of Game of Thrones will also return with zero female writers." Treatment of female characters on both those shows attracts heavy criticism.

The second link is a great list, but try suggesting that people should think about why more of those books - or indeed books by women - aren't included on sci-fi recommended reading lists, and you get slammed by a plethora of negative comments - from Tor.com just today: Conversations founded on false assumptions. Why are lists of female characters separate from "great books" lists?

The third link is also a great list, but just scanning down the first page of it, I would say 90% of them are young-adult titles, a category that is controversially but continuously demeaned, belittled, and written off as not serious literature. One wonders if that might be coincidence.

My only question about the fourth link is why on earth books with strong female protagonists should be considered "for women", if the greatness of a character has nothing to do with gender or other demographics?

 

[Gryphos]

Do you ever say to yourself "well, this character doesn't have to be black, so I'll make him white". It seems weird to make a character a specific race just because they could be. It strikes me as almost patronizing. And if a character's race is only skin-deep, I'd hardly call it "representation".

Thing is, white people aren't the ones lacking in representation in fantasy literature. If they were, then the situation would be reversed and I would be saying 'can I make them white?' As it is, there is a disproportionate amount of white characters in our media compared to PoC characters in general, let alone any specific non-white ethnicity. As to race being only 'skin-deep', thing is ... in a fantasy world which lacks our real world cultural history, it is! There's no psychological difference or substantial biological difference. All representation is is people being able to consume media and see characters who are, even just superficially, like them. It's having media that doesn't ignore the existence of vast swathes of people.

That same thought process extends to gender. Like you shouldn't change a character's sex because you feel like you need to have a symmetrical cast or whatever.

Why not? Seriously, actually think about it. Why not? Is it a 'deep' and 'meaningful' reason to make such a change? No. But does the reader care? No. The reader isn't going to know. Because all the characters are going to be rounded, fully developed and complex.

But I want to stress that I'm no authority on the subject and you do whatever works for your story. I'm just saying that adding "minorities" for the sake of adding minorities strikes me as - I honestly can't come-up with a better term - not-completely-good.

So I must justify the existence of every non-white character? Justify why they're not the 'default' white? No, I'm gonna make them that way just because. Because, thing is, that's how it is in real life. Does the person behind the counter at starbucks need to justify themselves not being white? Does the bus-driver need to justify being a woman? No. People are women because they're women, and people are black because they're black. So it is in my writing. And the moment you realise that, that there doesn't need to be a reason for these underrepresented characters to exist, everything becomes so much simpler, and your world becomes so much more colourful.