Computer voiced narration

[Ianto]

Well...I would say you are offering a service many authors want, and the arrangement you made sounds like a win/win. I think you both got something good out of it. Its just not for me. I intend to own the whole thing even if it costs me.

Well, I didn't get *anything* out of it in that way. She *does* own the whole thing. As I said, I turned down the royalty share and did it for free, and handed it over to her. She has complete rights to it- all I got was the enjoyment out of doing it. (Which was quite a bit! )

 

[Rexenm]

I remember the days of cassette from the library. Now iPods. I have been hibernating for most of it.

 

[Prince of Spires]

I've produced a few books for indy authors on Audible (through ACX) through royalty share. *No* upfront payment. It's the obvious choice (to me) for authors who don't expect to sell a large number of books.

The easy answer to this is that Audible and the ACX royalty share options are only available in a very limited number of countries, and I don't live in one of those. So that's simply not an option for me.

A more elaborate answer is that going with the royalty share option also forces me to be exclusive to Audible for 7 (I think) years. Which enforces the stranglehold audible has on the audiobook market, which is a terrible deal for authors. It lets them get away with terrible business practices and aweful royalty rates for authors.

I don't like it, which is one of the reasons not to use it. I know the few sales I'm missing out on are not going to change anything. But it's the only thing I can do.

 

[Ianto]

The easy answer to this is that Audible and the ACX royalty share options are only available in a very limited number of countries, and I don't live in one of those. So that's simply not an option for me.

A more elaborate answer is that going with the royalty share option also forces me to be exclusive to Audible for 7 (I think) years. Which enforces the stranglehold audible has on the audiobook market, which is a terrible deal for authors. It lets them get away with terrible business practices and aweful royalty rates for authors.

I don't like it, which is one of the reasons not to use it. I know the few sales I'm missing out on are not going to change anything. But it's the only thing I can do.

I'm not sure it needs an "answer", as if it is a debate to be rejected.
As I said, the last audiobook I did for free, without even royalty share. I liked the book and turned down both upfront payment and royalty share and the author has all rights.
You can come to a royalty share arrangement yourself with a narrator you have a good arrangement with - I'd certainly accept a "gentleman's agreement" to have fifty/forty/thirty/twn per cent of the royalties sent to me by an author I had any sort of relationship with.
And as I said, I did it of nothing for an author I've never met in person, so of course I would do it on that basis for someone I've only met through the internet. A lot of these contracts aren't really enforceable anyway. An author could take the audio you have put up, and go elsewhere and put it up somewhere else, taking the profit all for themselves anyway. It would be prohibitively difficult to find out about that, tand take them to court or whatever, especially if they were in another country. But even if they weren't,
So a lot of these things are based on trust anyway.
So yeah, if ou were to reach out to someone, I'm sure you could come to some arrangement with them.
I *know* you would be able to with me if I liked your book. And I'm sure there are people who could narrate it it for you who would like your book.

 

[Ianto]

There are a number of narrators who will "look down" on other narrators for doing things cheaper than they would do them, or for doing the "wrong books" through Royalty Share, whilst simultaneously deriding AI narration.
Their attitude is all about the money. (Like everybody else in this world) That their worth will be reduced if people go out of their way to ensure authors who sell fewer books can get decent narration, that PFH should *always* be at a certain level, even that you shouldn't do Royalty Share if you think the book won't sell well. Whilst, as I say, deriding AI narration.

There are plenty of narrators who disagree with that attitude!

I've spent a fair amount of time on narrators groups saying that it is that attitude which will encourage AI.

Now, here, I'm trying to convince writers that there are actually ways to do it without AI!

I'm all for ways for indy authors who are expecting to sell fewer books to get access to ways to get their audiobooks produced in a decent fashion. Without AI, as that can't do it in a decent fashion.

This *isn't* about the money, I assure you. It *isn't* about taking shares from authors. It's about being someone awho loves books and stories, loves hearing them red out loud well, and therefore helping ensure books aren't produced through AI, which sounds like nails down a blackboard to me and is a horrendous concept to my mind. Worse than mistreating books physically to my mind. It's treating the concept of storytelling with disrespect.

[And I include in that attitudes of narrators towards books they think won't sell well.]

 

[pmmg]

The easy answer to this is that Audible and the ACX royalty share options are only available in a very limited number of countries, and I don't live in one of those. So that's simply not an option for me.

A more elaborate answer is that going with the royalty share option also forces me to be exclusive to Audible for 7 (I think) years. Which enforces the stranglehold audible has on the audiobook market, which is a terrible deal for authors. It lets them get away with terrible business practices and aweful royalty rates for authors.

I don't like it, which is one of the reasons not to use it. I know the few sales I'm missing out on are not going to change anything. But it's the only thing I can do.

Didn't know this, but will keep it in mind now.

 

[Ianto]

Didn't know this, but will keep it in mind now.

It's very common for narrators even on ACX to make deals outside of Audible. Simply because Audible does this doesn't mean you can't make other deals - whether payment for all, royalty share, or accepting things as gifts from narrators there. Going with 'royalty share" doesn't mean you have to sell through audible any more than "going with payment per finished hour" means you have to go through audible. Making arrangements outside is always possible.

 

[Ianto]

The easy answer to this is that Audible and the ACX royalty share options are only available in a very limited number of countries, and I don't live in one of those. So that's simply not an option for me.

A more elaborate answer is that going with the royalty share option also forces me to be exclusive to Audible for 7 (I think) years. Which enforces the stranglehold audible has on the audiobook market, which is a terrible deal for authors. It lets them get away with terrible business practices and aweful royalty rates for authors.

I don't like it, which is one of the reasons not to use it. I know the few sales I'm missing out on are not going to change anything. But it's the only thing I can do.

I'll put my mouth where my mouth is, as my contributions to this thread seem to be misunderstood.
Do you want an audiobook of a work of yours done for free, to a standard which would be suitable to Audible, where you would have full rights to it and would be able to sell it on any platform you like?
I make this offer because
1. I hate the idea of anyone using AI, and am prepared to work to illustrate there are ways to stop it, and
2. I think what I am saying on this thread is being misunderstood quite badly, and I am getting quite frustrated by that.
Anyway, up to you. I might be completely unsuitable, or you just don't want to do it for any other reason. As I say, up to you, and all the best whatever you choose.

 

[Ianto]

For relevant information, here is the first chapter of the last book I did for nothing, which is now up on Audible. But it could have been put on any platform.
(As I say, I might not be suitable. And I would keep a right of refusal on the matter, as this is a free offer and not a contract or an indenture of a promise without consideration, of course!)

 

[pmmg]

Well...I am not sure what you are after, Ianto.

You have brought up the issue of royalty sharing to get an audiobook completed. Royalty share is me not owning it, its me sharing it...least the profits anyway. I wont go for that.

But you are insisting you have done it for free. Are you trying to suggest that you would be willing to do this for people here for free? Without the royalty share? Or are you just trying to say, that is an option that is out there in the world.

From my perspective, if I was inclined to say, please make an audio version of my book, I would prefer to pay whatever rate for the service, and not royalty share it. It may cost me more, I would accept that. But....I would be particular. I am not sure you are the match I am looking for.

For me, personally, I would like very much to never use AI for my creation. I do not want a reputation of reaching out to AI for anything. I want my work to be my own, and succeed on its own merits or not.

I can understand why Voice actors are not enjoying AI, and even those who are not charging the going rate, but...good luck fixing that. The Free market is capable of determining prices, and AI threatens to put them all out of business. Course, it threatens to put me out of business too. AI is a threat to the creative mind, and its chances in the market.

But...it appeals to people with less talent and less resources. It will not go away.

 

[Ianto]

Well...I am not sure what you are after, Ianto.

That's obvious, so that is why I'm doing this! (I'm not saying anything about anyone else's powers of understanding, I'm saying I'm not explaining myself well.)

You have brought up the issue of royalty sharing to get an audiobook completed. Royalty share is me not owning it, its me sharing it...least the profits anyway. I wont go for that.

I've brought up that, amongst other things. Yes, royalty share is sharing it.

But you are insisting you have done it for free. Are you trying to suggest that you would be willing to do this for people here for free? Without the royalty share? Or are you just trying to say, that is an option that is out there in the world.

I am not "insisting", I am simply saying that I have done it. My last post was *offering to do it fro free for someone* on this forum, and posting to an example which I had done for free for an author which is now on Audible, so I'm not sure why you are talking in terms of "trying to suggest"?

I'm saying that Authors can come to terms with narrators in any way they like. It can be for a one off payment for larger- or *smaller* amounts. It can be for royalty share. It can be for free. Just because ACX or Audible define the terms, it doesn't mean that real narrators you get in contact with have to do it in those terms. You can both make any agreement you damn well like - as long as you are both amenable to it. And put it up on *any* platform.

From my perspective, if I was inclined to say, please make an audio version of my book, I would prefer to pay whatever rate for the service, and not royalty share it. It may cost me more, I would accept that. But....I would be particular. I am not sure you are the match I am looking for.

You are right to be particular. I didn't offer that to you, and no problems with me not being a match for you. You need to get someone who is right for you. And you are right to choose the agreement and method of payment you are happy with.

I can understand why Voice actors are not enjoying AI, and even those who are not charging the going rate, but...good luck fixing that. The Free market is capable of determining prices, and AI threatens to put them all out of business. Course, it threatens to put me out of business too. AI is a threat to the creative mind, and its chances in the market.

That's the entire point I was making. That I've made the point to narrators that *some* narrators attempting to keep the price higher by looking down on people who weren't selling many books, and insisting on higher per finished hour rates is playing into the hands of AI. I am obviously not explaining myself well here. (I wouldn't say that narrators were "voice actors" by the way. Story telling predates acting by more than millennia.)

But...it appeals to people with less talent and less resources. It will not go away.

I don't think it will go away. But I think authors need to realise that "thousands of pounds for a real person producing an audiobook" is not the bottom line, simply because that is what is on certain websites.

 

[Jackarandajam]

For relevant information, here is the first chapter of the last book I did for nothing, which is now up on Audible. But it could have been put on any platform.
(As I say, I might not be suitable. And I would keep a right of refusal on the matter, as this is a free offer and not a contract or an indenture of a promise without consideration, of course!)

Excellent reading voice, I could listen to this all day.
If you don't mind me asking, what is that accent?

 

[Ianto]

Excellent reading voice, I could listen to this all day.
If you don't mind me asking, what is that accent?

Well, thank you! It's a Welsh accent.

 

[Prince of Spires]

It's very common for narrators even on ACX to make deals outside of Audible. Simply because Audible does this doesn't mean you can't make other deals - whether payment for all, royalty share, or accepting things as gifts from narrators there. Going with 'royalty share" doesn't mean you have to sell through audible any more than "going with payment per finished hour" means you have to go through audible. Making arrangements outside is always possible.

Just for some of the readers who aren't as deep into audio books and ACX: note that if you use the royalty share option from Audible, then you can't publish your audiobook anywhere else. The terms of service for Audible are very clear on this: if you use the royalty share option, then you are agreeing to be exclusive to Audible. And you're agreeing to be exclusive for 7 years.

The same goes for if you use the higher royalty option. You only get 40% royalties if you're Audible exclusive.

Do not, under any circumstance, try to get around this by simply publishing your work anywhere else. Amazon does check this, and they permanently close accounts for violations, with no options to appeal, which means you simply lose the option to publish any audiobooks to the biggest audiobook platform out there. It's not worth it.

Yes, if you find a narrator outside ACX you can agree to whatever you want. My personal advice would be to get everything in writing, even if it's with a good friend. Who does what, who gets paid what, and for how long? What happens after that time is over? It might not seem like a big deal and you're good friends after all. However, just imagine what happens when your book ends up being an accidental unicorn. Suddenly you made $2 million, and now who gets what? Please make sure you have everything spelled out. Friendships have been ruined over less.

 

[Ianto]

Just for some of the readers who aren't as deep into audio books and ACX: note that if you use the royalty share option from Audible, then you can't publish your audiobook anywhere else. The terms of service for Audible are very clear on this: if you use the royalty share option, then you are agreeing to be exclusive to Audible. And you're agreeing to be exclusive for 7 years.

The same goes for if you use the higher royalty option. You only get 40% royalties if you're Audible exclusive.

Do not, under any circumstance, try to get around this by simply publishing your work anywhere else. Amazon does check this, and they permanently close accounts for violations, with no options to appeal, which means you simply lose the option to publish any audiobooks to the biggest audiobook platform out there. It's not worth it.

Yes, if you find a narrator outside ACX you can agree to whatever you want. My personal advice would be to get everything in writing, even if it's with a good friend. Who does what, who gets paid what, and for how long? What happens after that time is over? It might not seem like a big deal and you're good friends after all. However, just imagine what happens when your book ends up being an accidental unicorn. Suddenly you made $2 million, and now who gets what? Please make sure you have everything spelled out. Friendships have been ruined over less.

Again, I believe you misunderstand what I was trying to say. (I'm not saying the fault lies with you.) You can make arrangements with narrators you find *anywhere*. It is only if it is *published* on Audible that you are tied in. Finding narrators through ACX or elsewhere does not lock you into that. Only *publishing* the audiobook.

If you want everything in writing, you do that. I've done it without writing, and I'm not naive, but there is no reason you or anyone else should do that.

Even in writing though, people should realise taking anyone to court over this would be prohibitively expensive unless you are a *very* successful writing, in which case all this becomes rather moot.

As I said, the point is you can find narrators all over the place, including on such sites as ACX. You can come to any agreement with them outside wherever you found them, whatever country you are from, as long as both of you are amenable. You can have that agreement in writing if you want. You can then publish wherever the hell you like.

You are not restricted to whatever arbitrary arrangements, rules or payment levels are on particular websites. It can be *anything*.

 

[Prince of Spires]

Again, I believe you misunderstand what I was trying to say. (I'm not saying the fault lies with you.) You can make arrangements with narrators you find *anywhere*. It is only if it is *published* on Audible that you are tied in. Finding narrators through ACX or elsewhere does not lock you into that. Only *publishing* the audiobook.

I didn't misunderstand you here. I got that you meant that you can work outside ACX with narrators, even if you find them via ACX. You can contact them and work out whatever agreement you want with them, and then selfpublish via ACX. However, I was just making sure that everyone else reading this understood that as well.

I've seen too many examples of writers getting accounts blocked because they violated some arbitrary part of the terms of service. It's one of those cases where it helps to be extra clear. Which was the reason for my post.

As for getting stuff in writing, that's just my personal preference. Everyone can do it their own way. And everyone is different. You just also need to ask yourself what would happen if you end up with some success. It doesn't have to be millions. Even if a good friend who needs the money thinks you might owe him $5k, then that may very well ruin your relationship.

And yes, going to court is expensive, but so is being taken to court. If you have nothing in writing, think of how you would react if you get a threatening letter from some lawyer demanding part of your royalties because your narrator did X and you agreed to pay Y.

Which is why I prefer to just write it down and get a signature underneath.

 

[Ianto]

I didn't misunderstand you here. I got that you meant that you can work outside ACX with narrators, even if you find them via ACX. You can contact them and work out whatever agreement you want with them, and then selfpublish via ACX. However, I was just making sure that everyone else reading this understood that as well.

I've seen too many examples of writers getting accounts blocked because they violated some arbitrary part of the terms of service. It's one of those cases where it helps to be extra clear. Which was the reason for my post.

Ah, gotcha. Good work that man.

As for getting stuff in writing, that's just my personal preference. Everyone can do it their own way.

Absolutely. I hope I was clear in my last post that that is exactly what I was saying myself.

You just also need to ask yourself what would happen if you end up with some success. It doesn't have to be millions. Even if a good friend who needs the money thinks you might owe him $5k, then that may very well ruin your relationship.

Absolutely, I'm not naive. I've made deals, arrangements and promises with many people over many years. I don't need to ask myself - such things have happened to me. And I then make a judgement in particular circumstances whether I want things in writing or not. And this can be easily done if you wish to do it.

And yes, going to court is expensive, but so is being taken to court. If you have nothing in writing, think of how you would react if you get a threatening letter from some lawyer demanding part of your royalties because your narrator did X and you agreed to pay Y.

I would tell them to get on their bike. They wouldn't have a leg to stand on, without anything in writing. And if you think a rights holder would do that unjustifiably, get something in writing. This isn't really relevant to this particular situation. Either get it in writing, or don't. But nothing is stopping anyone insisting on things being in writing.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

I like your voice, and the accent might just work for my books. If my voice issues persist, I might be in contact for a sample reading, LMAO.

Well, thank you! It's a Welsh accent.

 

[pmmg]

You do have a nice voice for reading fantasy.

I will leave it to others to decide if they want to find some arrangement with you or not, or take you up on your offer.

I am not sure I care ACX and Audible. When it comes time, I am sure I will put it on Audible and accept their thing.

If there are narrators who want to charge a higher price to keep the prices up, I suspect competition will beat them down. If you want to charge a higher price, you have to have something that makes the higher price justified. Markets are always tricky and full of grave markers for those wo fell behind. I dont envy their position, but if they price too high...they may find it hard to get work. They price to low, and it may be hard to make a living. And then AI....they have an uphill battle.

But they are not alone, artists are always in this position.

 

[Ianto]

You do have a nice voice for reading fantasy.

I will leave it to others to decide if they want to find some arrangement with you or not, or take you up on your offer.

Thank you! But I'm not doing this to get arrangements from people. I've pretty much stopped producing audiobooks to concentrate on writing, and just do one now and agin to keep my... erm... mouth in. As a favour for people I know or to illustrate a point (as on this thread.) I simply want people to know that the (high) amounts of money "per finished hour" often bandied about are *not* the final word in production of audiobooks, whether by me or other people.

If there are narrators who want to charge a higher price to keep the prices up, I suspect competition will beat them down. If you want to charge a higher price, you have to have something that makes the higher price justified. Markets are always tricky and full of grave markers for those wo fell behind. I dont envy their position, but if they price too high...they may find it hard to get work. They price to low, and it may be hard to make a living. And then AI....they have an uphill battle.

But they are not alone, artists are always in this position.

It's not even just artists who are affected by this. It's pretty much everyone.
Yeah, my degree in economics counted for nothing compared to life experience in stressing the importance of recognising the perils in failing to keep up with trends. I'm pretty much old-fashioned and out of style in everything I do though, and I'm accepting of what that means in terms of sales! (And what it means to the possibility of a lifestyle of wine, women and song whilst living in a seaside mansion in the Bahamas.)
But "move with the times" is old, old advice. And still good.