Darth Vader to return in next Star Wars film?

[Benjamin Clayborne]

Hopefully we'll get to see some real Jedi in the new movies. It always mystified me that Jedi in the films were so weak, especially in the Original Trilogy. I'd like to see Jedi who are more on level with the powers we see in the Force Unleashed. Now that'd be awesome. Jedi who can do stuff like this:

Now THAT's more like it!

I don't really know if what Star Wars needs is to be more cartoonish.

 

[Mindfire]

I don't really know if what Star Wars needs is to be more cartoonish.

It doesn't have to be cartoonish. Maybe the Avengers has spoiled me, but I've had it with weak, low-power Jedi. It's always bothered me, but now I'm just fed up with it. The Jedi are built up as these mystical, powerful warriors, but what can they do? Levitate small objects, push people, and jump really high. Boring. Master Yoda is the most powerful Jedi we ever see, but the things he does in the movies would be a tutorial in the Force Unleashed. Force powers should be impressive and awe-inspiring. Simple chokes, throws, and pushes might have been impressive once upon a time, but nowadays not so much. Also, no more battle droids. I'm kinda tired of them.

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

It doesn't have to be cartoonish. Maybe the Avengers has spoiled me, but I've had it with weak, low-power Jedi. It's always bothered me, but now I'm just fed up with it. The Jedi are built up as these mystical, powerful warriors, but what can they do? Levitate small objects, push people, and jump really high. Boring. Master Yoda is the most powerful Jedi we ever see, but the things he does in the movies would be a tutorial in the Force Unleashed. Force powers should be impressive and awe-inspiring. Simple chokes, throws, and pushes might have been impressive once upon a time, but nowadays not so much. Also, no more battle droids. I'm kinda tired of them.

In good storytelling, the superpowers are the least interesting aspect of the characters. Yes, it stokes our inner fanboys to see Yoda flippin' around dealin' death (man, I freaked out during his duel at the end of Episode II, before I realized how crappy the movie was), but it's not all that interesting.

 

[Mindfire]

In good storytelling, the superpowers are the least interesting aspect of the characters. Yes, it stokes our inner fanboys to see Yoda flippin' around dealin' death (man, I freaked out during his duel at the end of Episode II, before I realized how crappy the movie was), but it's not all that interesting.

True, storytelling takes paramount importance. But I feel that if you build up the Jedi as being great and powerful, you need to deliver on that promise. So far, none of the movies have really done that, though Episode 3 comes close. What we are told about the Jedi does not match what we are shown about them. And that's what irritates me. It wouldn't be so bad if the movies didn't spend so much time telling us how awesome they are. If they were only supposed to be ordinary warrior mystics, it'd be fine. But the movies build them up so much that when you see what they can really do, it's a little disappointing. The worst part is when the Jedi and Sith themselves talk about how awesome they are, despite the fact that the in-movie powers are mostly underwhelming.

Episode 2:
"Powerful you have become, Dooku."
But all he did was move a few rocks...

Episode 5:
"Impressive. Most impressive."
Really? Because all Luke did was jump over your head, Vader. How is that impressive? That's not even a Force power, it's standard Jedi training.

It also creates this continuity rift between the movies and the supporting material. In the games, cartoons, and some of the books the feats the Jedi and Sith accomplish are so great it feels like the movies and the supporting material are living in two different universes. Have you seen the list of force powers that appear in the expanded universe? And of all of them, only 5 or so are seen in the films.

 

[Zero Angel]

In good storytelling, the superpowers are the least interesting aspect of the characters. Yes, it stokes our inner fanboys to see Yoda flippin' around dealin' death (man, I freaked out during his duel at the end of Episode II, before I realized how crappy the movie was), but it's not all that interesting.

So although their characters need to be very interesting on their own with or without superpowers, I think superpowers are extremely cool and interesting and should be included in addition to having a good storyline with deep characters and the superpowers should themselves be interesting and exciting.

There's a reason I enjoy fantasy and science fiction so much...and it's not because of low-powered characters.

 

[Steerpike]

I like fantasy and science fiction, but I often hate over-powered characters. Some of them work for me, but as a rule I find low-powered characters more interesting.

 

[Mindfire]

I like fantasy and science fiction, but I often hate over-powered characters. Some of them work for me, but as a rule I find low-powered characters more interesting.

Why exactly? A well developed character is a well developed character regardless of power level. And powerful characters have the bonus of being good for huge awesome moments that you don't get from low-power characters.

 

[Mindfire]

So although their characters need to be very interesting on their own with or without superpowers, I think superpowers are extremely cool and interesting and should be included in addition to having a good storyline with deep characters and the superpowers should themselves be interesting and exciting.

There's a reason I enjoy fantasy and science fiction so much...and it's not because of low-powered characters.

I heartily concur.

 

[Steerpike]

Why exactly? A well developed character is a well developed character regardless of power level. And powerful characters have the bonus of being good for huge awesome moments that you don't get from low-power characters.

High-powered characters strike me as cartoonish and cheesy, by and large. That's one reason even my D&D sessions are pretty low-powered, both in terms of setting and character. If I'm playing in a table-top RPG session that turns into some kind of uber-powered, anime-like magic fest I want to spoon out my own eyes. I like the power levels in the original Star Wars movies better than some of what came later. Actually, there's good reason why Luke wouldn't be able to do all kinds of crazy stuff, but explaining why Vader can't do more in the original movies is a bit harder if you look at the extended universe stuff, or even the prequels. His power was reduced after fighting Obi-Wan and needing the suit?

 

[Mindfire]

His power was reduced after fighting Obi-Wan and needing the suit?

That's the usual explanation. But that's rather irrelevant. I say that if you make promises to your audience you are obliged to keep them. And the fact is that the Star Wars movies do not deliver on the promises of Jedi awesomeness that they made by hyping up the Order and making them into legends. Even the Sith, while overall great villains, still don't live up to their hype.

 

[Zero Angel]

See, even so-called "low-powered" characters I think people wouldn't root for them if they weren't super-powered in some way. Now, that way may be that because they have low magick they trained really hard or are an amazing military genius of some sort or whatever, but if they are truly low-powered then either they're lucky and their survival is through no doing of their own or they're dead.

If most people say they don't want to see high-powered characters, I am assuming they mean that this is because high-powered characters generally are not handled well. The powers have a tendency of overshadowing the characters instead of just being their talent. Also, the powers are generally received a little too cheaply and there is frequently little consequence to their use. Then the powers take the place of the luck of the low-powered character. No matter how you slice it, it seems Deus Ex-y to me. But this is a failure in writing, not in power.

The alternative of course is your low-powered character doesn't do anything of consequence and they participate in more "day-in-the-life" type stories. If that is your cup of tea, then OK, but well, that's not what interests me.

To summarize: I am against using powers as a Deus ex Machina device. I am against low-powered characters surviving on luck alone (at least more than a few times). I am against powers without consequence. But I am a firm believer that more powers more problems. If you have power, then that means you can handle more and more can be thrown at you. The stronger you become, the more you can overcome and the farther you can fall.

And I always subscribed to the belief that Darth Vader chose not to use his powers fully because he felt the relation to his son through the force.

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

That's the usual explanation. But that's rather irrelevant. I say that if you make promises to your audience you are obliged to keep them. And the fact is that the Star Wars movies do not deliver on the promises of Jedi awesomeness that they made by hyping up the Order and making them into legends. Even the Sith, while overall great villains, still don't live up to their hype.

What promises? To my knowledge, nothing in the Original Trilogy (OT) held the Jedi out to be superpowered badasses. The Jedi were exactly as powerful as they needed to be. (When the Emperor had this sudden new awesome lightning ability and didn't even use a lightsaber, we all thought that was the amazingest thing ever.)

In the interim between the OT and the Prequel Trilogy (PT), the Expanded Universe started up, and we got dozens of novels and other (semi-to-fully-canonical) material, which started depicting the Jedi as having all these other powers, like they were level 15 D&D wizards. I'm recalling specifically the Dark Empire comic series, which showed how the Emperor could create a giant Force Storm the size of a planet. (Why he didn't do this during the Battle of Endor to wipe out the Rebel fleet, I have no idea. ) To me, the most interesting of the EU novels were the ones that didn't focus on the Jedi: Wraith Squadron, the Corellia trilogy, and so on. (Actually, the Thrawn trilogy still stands up; it does focus on Jedi but it doesn't radically expand their powers. In fact it makes their lives harder by way of the ysalamiri. Only the bad guys get more powers. That's good storytelling.)

Then the PT came out. If you're complaining that the PT didn't hold up to what the EU had shown Jedi capable of, my response is: So what? The PT sucks. Worrying about some specific detail of world-building is irrelevant in the face of how awful the writing and storytelling were. In any event, the problem is that the EU should have been reined in, not that the movies should have shown the Jedi being even more powerful. Trust me, nobody back in 1983 was saying, "Pfft, those Jedi are weak, they should have been way more powerful!"

Also:

"Impressive. Most impressive."
Really? Because all Luke did was jump over your head, Vader. How is that impressive? That's not even a Force power, it's standard Jedi training.

Luke used the Force to jump that high; that's not something a human body is capable of on its own, no matter how much training you undergo. What was impressive is that Luke had gotten so far in his Force studies so fast; Vader knew that normally Jedi spent years getting to that point, and Luke had gotten there in a few weeks/months (the amount of time he's on Dagobah is unclear).

Maybe you don't find that impressive, but I'd say that's because the EU and PT have ruined your perspective.

 

[Anders Ämting]

I think what they mean is that they're going to create a new villain in the spirit of Darth Vader,

So, basically this guy then?

I dunno... this whole approach just seems kinda lazy.

Hopefully we'll get to see some real Jedi in the new movies. It always mystified me that Jedi in the films were so weak, especially in the Original Trilogy. I'd like to see Jedi who are more on level with the powers we see in the Force Unleashed. Now that'd be awesome. Jedi who can do stuff like this:

Now THAT's more like it!

Your milage may vary, but personally I dislike stuff like the first Clone Wars cartoon, where they seem to want to turn the Jedi into a bunch of unstoppable super heroes. Actually, the reason I'm a huge fan of the CGI cartoon is because it usually stays very close to the movies in terms of style and power levels.

I don't think the Jedi and Sith were ever meant to be godlike - there is nothing in the original trilogy supporting that. I think they were always meant to be just an order of spiritual warriors: Exceptional in body and spirit, but tragically mortal in the end.

Right that's why I mentioned the clone tech...do clones get force powers? Grievous was a very droidy cyborg.

Grievous didn't have Force powers, though. He was just a guy who liked to collect lightsabers.

It also creates this continuity rift between the movies and the supporting material. In the games, cartoons, and some of the books the feats the Jedi and Sith accomplish are so great it feels like the movies and the supporting material are living in two different universes. Have you seen the list of force powers that appear in the expanded universe? And of all of them, only 5 or so are seen in the films.

You seem to be under the impression that the movies have a responsibility to stay consistent with the Expanded Universe. In reality, it's the other way around, and one of the reasons a lot of EU stuff annoys me is that a lot of EU writers don't seem able to grasp something that simple.

If you write a Star Wars book, it's your job to make sure it's consistent with the movie continuity. If it isn't, then you are the one who messed up. You don't get to write Luke Skywalker juggling black holes and then expect the movies to owe up to that.

So although their characters need to be very interesting on their own with or without superpowers, I think superpowers are extremely cool and interesting and should be included in addition to having a good storyline with deep characters and the superpowers should themselves be interesting and exciting.

There's a reason I enjoy fantasy and science fiction so much...and it's not because of low-powered characters.

Meh. I think it's a stylistic choice. I enjoy power fantasies as much as any other nerd, but you have to pick a scale you want to operate on and stick with it.

For example, if I go see a Spiderman movie I don't expect Spiderman to catch bullets with his eyes or punch the villain into space. That's what Superman does.

Likewise, when I go see a Batman movie, I don't expect Batman to be as physically powerful as Spiderman, because that's not what Batman is about.

What I mean is, you want to give your hero certain limits. Where you set those limits depend on what kind of story you are trying to tell.

 

[Mindfire]

I don't think the Jedi and Sith were ever meant to be godlike - there is nothing in the original trilogy supporting that. I think they were always meant to be just an order of spiritual warriors: Exceptional in body and spirit, but tragically mortal in the end.

Well they don't have to be godlike. But there's this overarching sense that Jedi are supposed to be special. People all over the galaxy fear them. When they walk into a room, people take notice. As it is, that reputation seems largely... unearned. What exactly makes them so indispensable if not their powers? What makes them so intimidating? I can't seem to find an answer.

 

[Mindfire]

In retrospect, you don't really even have to give them more power to correct this issue. Simply making them better martial artists would suffice. I suspect that your average Shaolin monk would eat Obi-Wan for breakfast if you gave him a lightsaber.

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

In retrospect, you don't really even have to give them more power to correct this issue. Simply making them better martial artists would suffice. I suspect that your average Shaolin monk would eat Obi-Wan for breakfast if you gave him a lightsaber.

No, because shaolin monks can't predict the future. The reason Jedi are deadly duelists is that they can see a short distance into the future and predict their opponent's moves; it's the same reason they can deflect blaster bolts. They know in advance exactly where the bolt is going to be, or the opponent's blade.

A Jedi would dismember a shaolin monk within seconds. Doesn't matter how highly trained the monk is; he can't see the future. It's not like the Jedi has some kind of lightning-fast reflexes; it's actual precognition.

There's also the fact that a non-Force user trying to duel a Force-user would end up with the Force-user simply holding his opponent in place with telekinesis and then killing him at will. Jedi don't do this to each other because they're both Force-users and can basically stop each other from doing it (although if one gets distracted, or is significantly less powerful, e.g. Anakin and Obi-wan vs. Dooku in Ep3, the more powerful one can break through and grab the other one telekinetically, as when Dooku flings Obi-wan across the room).

 

[Zero Angel]

I thought you had to have the force just to activate lightsabers?

I also think that Spider-Man and Batman classify as high-powered characters, not as high-powered as Superman, but high-powered nonetheless. My point was just that you don't go to watch movies about someone off the street that has nothing special about them. Although this seems to be a trend in modern literature...

 

[Mindfire]

I thought you had to have the force just to activate lightsabers?

I also think that Spider-Man and Batman classify as high-powered characters, not as high-powered as Superman, but high-powered nonetheless. My point was just that you don't go to watch movies about someone off the street that has nothing special about them. Although this seems to be a trend in modern literature...

Well that depends on your definition of "power", doesn't it?

 

[Mindfire]

No, because shaolin monks can't predict the future. The reason Jedi are deadly duelists is that they can see a short distance into the future and predict their opponent's moves; it's the same reason they can deflect blaster bolts. They know in advance exactly where the bolt is going to be, or the opponent's blade.

A Jedi would dismember a shaolin monk within seconds. Doesn't matter how highly trained the monk is; he can't see the future. It's not like the Jedi has some kind of lightning-fast reflexes; it's actual precognition.

There's also the fact that a non-Force user trying to duel a Force-user would end up with the Force-user simply holding his opponent in place with telekinesis and then killing him at will. Jedi don't do this to each other because they're both Force-users and can basically stop each other from doing it (although if one gets distracted, or is significantly less powerful, e.g. Anakin and Obi-wan vs. Dooku in Ep3, the more powerful one can break through and grab the other one telekinetically, as when Dooku flings Obi-wan across the room).

Then how do bounty hunters get reputations as "Jedi-killers" exactly?

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

I thought you had to have the force just to activate lightsabers?

Nope. Han uses Luke's in ESB to cut open the tauntaun. (It's been thoroughly established that Han is not Force-sensitive.)