Don't over-think

[FatCat]

A big problem I see in the amateur writing community is the attempt to make a world instead of a story. Massive amounts of world building with a story being secondary. It's like there is a fixation on how a world exists but neglect story. Just daydreaming

 

[pmmg]

Like I often say....where is the story? Story matters most.

 

[Queshire]

While I agree I don't think it's particularly helpful to just point it out and not offer up any strategies for dealing with the inclination.

 

[Finchbearer]

I agree with this, and also think that the world building aspect of fantasy writing draws many people in from gaming backgrounds, which can often be seen in the writing style too - nothing wrong with being a gaming enthusiast who is inspired to write a fantasy novel as a creative outlet - but there needs to be a different approach where story telling takes place. I don’t want to read about a generic quasi-medieval world where there is a tavern, a castle, a dragon and a quest… Joe Devor brought this to the fore with his gaming books, but unless you’re writing an RPG style book, the world building needs to simmer in the background but not be the driving force. Just my opinion.

That being said…I do love world building.

 

[LieutenantWolf34]

A big problem I see in the amateur writing community is the attempt to make a world instead of a story. Massive amounts of world building with a story being secondary. It's like there is a fixation on how a world exists but neglect story. Just daydreaming

You aren't wrong. I tend to overthink a lot.

 

[pmmg]

I don’t want to read about a generic quasi-medieval world where there is a tavern, a castle, a dragon and a quest

Well...there goes my story.

 

[pmmg]

I have to think on this some more....

I do sometimes think the stuff people post up is looking at the trees and not the forest, and I feel I often comment about that, but you gotta start somewhere. And I do think there is bleed over between gaming and writings. A lot of creative aspects are the same, but there are also many areas that don't carry over well. Those things that seem fun on game night, are not really fun in print.

At times people come in and say, 'here is my world, how about all you writers help me fill in its content'. Fine with me if others want to try, but I am always like...Thanks, but no thanks, I am working on my own story world, not someone else's.

 

[skip.knox]

Don't like overthinking? Try underthinking!

Hm, curious. Overthinking spellcheck counts as a word, but it claims underthinking is a spelling error. *snort*

Anyways.

Worldbuilding is only too much, is only a problem, if ... well, I guess if it annoys the person leveling the criticism. Some people build worlds and really enjoy that and maybe they never write a story and they're fine with that. But when they become distressed because they *want* to write a story and somehow never do, then maybe the worldbuilding is getting in the way.

But while worldbuilding may be getting in the way, it may not actually be the problem. It may be that they simply aren't writers--that is, they aren't storytellers. They don't get satisfaction from telling a story in the way they get satisfaction from constructing imaginary worlds. It may be that they are insecure about completing an actual story and putting it out for view by others, but I don't think so. There are plenty of people who have written stories that are never shared but sit in a drawer (or in a folder on a computer).

I gave a presentation once that demonstrated how one could build out a world by starting with a story; by starting with a character, to be more specific. To respond to Queshire, I would propose that as a way to shift gears from worldbuilding to story telling. Start with a character: elf, human, whatever. The character has to live somewhere: city, village, island. Proceed step by step, filling in only what is needed to answer the current question.

That approach rarely answers big questions. It doesn't typically address the empire that might exist on the other side of the world. It doesn't invent whole religions. It doesn't say whether there's a binary star or not. It also doesn't tend to write multi-volume epics. But it can help a person get from Chapter One to The End.

 

[Mad Swede]

As skip.knox writes, it depends on what your focus is. With that written, in my view you have to do quite a lot of worldbuilding if your story is to be complete. Simple questions like what you main character does (or has done) for a living? How is they got involved in whatever they're doing now? If they are a swordsman-for-hire and nothing else, how does that affect them in the long term? Money - how do people get paid and with what? Who backs the coinage? Do people have to carry cash, or is there a system of bills and promisory notes, and if so, who regulates that? Weights and measures, how are they standardised (even in a town) and by whom? Is there any sort of legal system, or do people just kill burglars? Who controls the countryside so that people can grow and sell food? Where does our hero buy a sword or a horse, or get his boots? All these questions are basics which directly or indirectly arise as your characters move around and do things - and we as authors must have some idea of how it all works. That's partly for completeness, but mainly because it gives all sorts of possible plot hooks and incidents to keep the story moving and keep the reader interested.

 

[pmmg]

Oops, posted in the wrong thread....

 

[The Dark One]

Tell the story and the world will build itself.

 

[Insolent Lad]

Tell the story and the world will build itself.

Maybe so, but I find building a world will suggest all sorts of stories to me.

 

[Queshire]

To play devil's advocate I've certainly seen several stories that could have benefited from some more world building beforehand. Most of the time it happens with stories that have grown beyond their original scope as a result of success *cough*Harry Potter*cough* or when it comes to establishing a firm power ceiling.

 

[FifthView]

At times people come in and say, 'here is my world, how about all you writers help me fill in its content'.

Well it's often, "Here is my world. Isn't it cool? Look at all these things I'm putting in it. Aren't they cool? Really, aren't they genius? Behold my genius."

Maybe I'm being too cynical, but I don't think so. I avoid those threads like the plague once I realize what they are. I'm all for creative abandon, getting lost in your own brainstorming and imagination, and fantasy worlds for their own sake, but please don't assume anyone else wants to get lost there.

That's the final trick: Finding a way to make others want to get lost in your world the way you do when you are imagining it.

I mean the above to be a guide for anyone who truly cares about the world building more than any possible story set in that world. Maybe fantastic worlds really can be magical, great ends in themselves, but you're much better off keeping them to yourself if you can't design an engaging story that will lead others to the same enjoyment of those worlds.

 

[FifthView]

I gave a presentation once that demonstrated how one could build out a world by starting with a story; by starting with a character, to be more specific. To respond to @Queshire, I would propose that as a way to shift gears from worldbuilding to story telling. Start with a character: elf, human, whatever. The character has to live somewhere: city, village, island. Proceed step by step, filling in only what is needed to answer the current question.

That approach rarely answers big questions. It doesn't typically address the empire that might exist on the other side of the world. It doesn't invent whole religions. It doesn't say whether there's a binary star or not. It also doesn't tend to write multi-volume epics. But it can help a person get from Chapter One to The End.

Sometimes when I'm feeling particularly cantankerous, I lament the over-focus on characters as the foundation of storytelling.

I mean, it's really, really hard to argue against the importance of characters, heh. But I do feel some things are lost, worlds are cheapened, when the character's environment is merely a foil or prop for character development. Sure, I love romances, the coming of age tale, slips into madness, and all kinds of redemption arcs—all these tales focusing on character—but there are some awesome things in our world that have existed and will go on existing long after any character is around to see them, and I like to think there may be even more of these things in fantasy worlds. They are independent of character even if a character must be around to experience amazement....although, never forget the reader is around and can experience amazement regardless of a character's experience.

I'll admit to my own experience of some early science fiction that used characters as mere props and foils for delivering strange worlds, technologies, and so forth: They were rather enjoyable, but a little bit dry in too big doses. Even so, I kind of miss those.

 

[Rexenm]

Good story, bad writing? World building needs not much more than a tree, maybe some water. Maybe just world building has ulterior motives. World building may just be the reason a story is credible, but maybe just not desirable. I have fallen into many thus traps.

 

[authorannie]

Like I often say....where is the story? Story matters most.

Absolutely! these days I prefer to write the world building around the story and it feels more natural.

 

[The Dark One]

Sure, I love romances, the coming of age tale, slips into madness, and all kinds of redemption arcs—all these tales focusing on character—but there are some awesome things in our world that have existed and will go on existing long after any character is around to see them, and I like to think there may be even more of these things in fantasy worlds. They are independent of character even if a character must be around to experience amazement....although, never forget the reader is around and can experience amazement regardless of a character's experience.

I'd suggest that such things - whatever they are - from a storytelling perspective are quasi-characters. By which I mean they are factors/influences in the story that readers may like / look forward to / remember independent of the MCs, similar to the way they enjoy particular characters.

If a world, or a rock, or a tree, or a weird political system is sufficiently engaging and memorable, it has almost the same impact as a successful character.

Of course, you can't have any of these things without a really compelling and immersive story.

 

[Queshire]

I mean... I'd say that's less indictive of the importance of characters and more indicative that every aspect of the story can be important...

 

[pmmg]

I was meaning by that those who come in and invite stories in a giant collaborative world we all build together. Not for me to tell others what to spend their energy on, but i am not interested.

Anyway....I tend to reply to most threads (I don't like them to get no attention), but a world is just part of the whole, without the whole...its not enough.

I was going to make a similar comment to Dark One. The world itself is also like a character. While I need to come to care what happens to the characters, I also need to come to care what happens to or on the world. They go together, and both need appropriate attention. The scale can slide around a bit, less world, more character, or the reverse, but over time both should come to matter.

I am not really interested in characters on their own (look at my villain does not impress), but the same for the world. On its own, its never gonna be as cool to me as it is to you. If you want others to like it, you need to get the story going. Story matters most.

At the same time, I am willing to afford the OPer the benefit is trying to actually use their topic as a way to improve their writing. I do try to read for what is actually being asked for, even if it is not stated well, or what is needed. Unless there is strong reason to read into the mind of the OPer, I usually don't go further than suspecting.