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Emma Watson's UN speech

T.Allen.Smith

Staff
Moderator
I moved this thread to Chit Chat since it has veered sharply away from questions pertaining to writing, the the representation of men in entertainment.
 

Bortasz

Troubadour
I disagree. In the U.S., and I expect in many other places, there is still a pay gap. The pay gap affects women of all demographics, but women of color and older women are hit even harder by it. As a rule, women tend to be more highly represented in part-time, or uncertain job positions, less represented in the upper tiers of the work force, and statistically make less, on average, than their male counterparts.

Women still tend to be underrepresented in the board room and in government, despite making up just over half of the population. This is particularly true in the tech industry, and women still have a ways to go to be represented properly in math, science, engineering, and the like. If you look at how girls are treated in their early education, from elementary school through high school, you can see that much of disparity is due to institutionalized differences in how boys and girls are taught, and how teachers interact with them.

Domestic/sexual violence still disproportionately affects women, as do societal stereotypes or views on the victims of sexual violence. This takes on an increased level of severity in some countries, that is true, but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist in the U.S. as well. It does.

Women are still vastly more likely than men to fall below the poverty line after a divorce.

Women face an intrusive level of government regulation into their health and reproductive lives, even in the U.S., to an extent unknown by men.

Women, even in the U.S. still take on the bulk of domestic and child-rearing activities, even in two-income households where both partners are working outside of the home.

And so on.

The "everything is already equal" argument isn't really borne out by the facts, and the "women have even more rights" argument is absurd on its face.

I have little time now. So I only say this.

Pay Gap is a myth like Zeus and Hercules.

Now I imagine you don't agree with this. So pleas watch this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb_6v-JQ13Q

This is Seminary by Dr. Warren Farrell. He explain that this gap is about choices that man and women make in there life time. Not Sexism.

Here are information about Dr Warren Farrel if you are interested.
Warren Farrell, Ph.D. | » Why Warren Is the Way He Is
Warren Farrell - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Pleas especial note that he WAS part of the Feminists movement when they were forming.

I recognize that this coming from men make this argument weak. So here some staff from a women:
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLytTJqkSQqtozQffMxSaYEySkAGlT_unH
Especial her video about pay gap:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrbS537nnso&list=PLytTJqkSQqtozQffMxSaYEySkAGlT_unH&index=10
https://www.youtube.com/watch?annot...3g2yDfu7Xmd&src_vid=LrbS537nnso&v=58arQIr882w

Some information about
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christina_Hoff_Sommers


In reality in First World Countries Women have MORE rights than men. Men are not you enemy. We do not hate you.
We were you protectors and providers for centuries. We do not have problem with strong independent women.
We have problem with painting us as a predators, rapes, paedophiles. We have problem with painting women as victims. And that is what majority of feminists are doing.
 

Jabrosky

Banned
Is this kind of thread even allowed on MS in spite of the political moratorium? Honestly, the various discussions of diversity (gender, race, or whatever) in writing were more interesting than this. At least they were on-topic.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Bortasz:

I am familiar with all of the pay gap arguments. Saying it is a myth just makes you look uneducated. The gap exists. We can discuss the reasons as to why it exists. There are arguments pertaining to choices men and women make early in life, and I think if you look at that information you can see that those choices are indeed a component of it. However, all that does is further underscore that the disparity against women is institutionalized. If the whole system is set up so that the choices women are most likely to make early in life, in terms of very important issues like reproductive capacity and family, will ensure that they end up less likely to succeed, to make less money overall, and to be much more likely to end up below the poverty level, then you've really just proven the point that at a very basic, institutionalized level the system is stacked against women.

And again, the "women have more rights than men!" argument is absurd on its face. I don't know how you can believe that if you view any of the data. Yes, you can find individual factors where the same system that harms women also harms men in other ways, but pointing out harms suffered by one group doesn't negate the existence of harms suffered by the other.
 

Gryphos

Auror
I like to take this approach to gender politics: I don't like the word feminism. You know why? Because it implies that it's possible and even the norm to not be one. Drawing a parallel to race, you don't call someone who believes black people are equal 'blackists', you call people who disagree with them 'racists'. So it should be here. If someone expresses a sexist view, don't say "I disagree with you because I'm a feminist", say "I disagree with you because you're a sexist".

It's not men vs women, it's good people vs sexists.

As to the speech, I think she made a lot of fantastic points. This isn't just an issue of women in society, this is an issue of gender roles in society in general. These roles and stereotypes, for men and women, need to be torn down so as to truly create an environment of equality. Sadly, there's still a way to go.

Yes, in a de jure manner, total gender equality is basically achieved. However, in a de facto manner, it isn't. It's getting there, yes, no one should ever deny that. Women nowadays in general are in the best position they've ever been. But, as I said, there's still a way to go.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Is this kind of thread even allowed on MS in spite of the political moratorium? Honestly, the various discussions of diversity (gender, race, or whatever) in writing were more interesting than this. At least they were on-topic.

Politics per se isn't allowed. So if you're going to discuss Bush versus Clinton or something like that, or how people should vote in the upcoming midterms election, I think you're beyond the limits of what the rules allow. Discussion sociological issues like gender isn't verboten, however people do have to approach the discussion in a respectful manner.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Yes, in a de jure manner, total gender equality is basically achieved. However, in a de facto manner, it isn't.

I think that's a good distinction. And, in the U.S., even from a de jure standpoint, the intrusion in the women's health and medical issues by government is still an issue, whereas for men it really isn't.
 

Bortasz

Troubadour
Bortasz:

I am familiar with all of the pay gap arguments. Saying it is a myth just makes you look uneducated. The gap exists.

Okey we have here shaming tactics. And this is place were I log out from this thread.
‘The Catalogue of Anti-Male Shaming Tactics’ | Exposing Feminism

Final saying:
I stay by all that I post.
Women have more rights than man in first world countries.
Women are oppressed in the third world countries, but I do not see Feminists helping them.
Feminists is in Majority Hate movement, that Paint Women as Victims and Men as Predator.

Have Nice Day.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Yes, bowing out is probably a good idea, since you didn't really respond to any points that were raised. Your appeal to logic, via your link, looks a bit out of place considering your approach to the thread.

As I said, the pay gap is simply a known fact. You can argue its reason but not its existence. Pointing out that saying it doesn't exist is uneducated is not shaming you, it is a mere statement of fact. The labor statistics, at least in the U.S., are quite clear on the existence of the gap. If you were not aware of that, then by definition you lack education on that point.

Now, if you want to argue that the reason it exists is all down to choices women make, then you can make that argument but you run into all of the problems I raised (and you ignored) above with respect to that argument (not to mention that it is only part of the picture).
 

Svrtnsse

Staff
Article Team
I quite like Emma's speech. I don't remember much of the details, but I took away two main points:

1. Feminism isn't anti-male or anti-men - it's about equality.
2. Gender equality isn't just a women's issue - it's everyone's issue and it will take both women and men to achieve it.

I personally think that these are good points, and I have a hard time seeing how anyone would disagree with it. I'm sure someone will disagree anyway, because people like to disagree, but I doubt there will be that many.

I ended up in a similar discussion recently where someone called the speech a failure as it failed to include the entire issue - such as gender discrimination faced by men. My take on it isn't that this isn't something that's trying to resolve the entire inequality issue in one go. What Emma's trying to do is to raise awareness of the issue of inequality and get it some attention. The fact that we're having this discussion and that other discussions like this are being held elsewhere is one indications that she achieved something.

It would appear that this is needed, seeing as there are apparently people who are under the view that feminism is a hate movement. This has got to be one of the most absurd statements I've heard in quite a while (and considering I'm working in online customer support that's saying something).

Personally, I like this quote:
"Feminism is this absurd notion that women are actually people too."
 

ascanius

Inkling
OK this is not at all where I intended this to go.....( stopped reading after the second page) Guess I should have waited till later when I had more time to write out few questions pertinent for a stimulating discussion in relation to writing.
 

Bortasz

Troubadour
OK this is not at all where I intended this to go.....( stopped reading after the second page) Guess I should have waited till later when I had more time to write out few questions pertinent for a stimulating discussion in relation to writing.

You can still write you question.
 

Jabrosky

Banned
This is only tangentially related to the OP topic in that it invokes the larger topic of social justice, but it has been bugging me for a while.

We've probably all heard the concept of privilege as a series of advantages favoring people from certain demographic divisions over others. Men over women, people of European ancestry over non-Europeans, heterosexuals over homosexuals, etc. I don't disagree that belonging to certain groups can confer unfair advantages onto someone in our society, but the problem is that everyone in existence probably belongs to at least one group that could be considered less privileged, as well as one that is more privileged. And what if the absence of privilege in one area ends up overriding all the other, privileged aspects of that person's identity?

As a straight, cis-gendered white male from a reasonably affluent family, I'd probably come across as disgustingly privileged in the eyes of the tumblr crowd. On the other hand, I've had Asperger's Syndrome all my life, and in the past few years I've been wrestling with spasms of depression and suicidal temptations. Every day I wonder whether I would really qualify as subhuman and would be better off dead. Possibly I'd be even more miserable if I were born into some racial, sexual, or gender minority in conjunction to what I'm already suffering. However, I have a difficult time fathoming that a guy like me would be objectively more "privileged" than, say, a black lesbian who had all her stuff together and didn't have my self-loathing tendencies.

Is it really fair to say some individuals are more privileged than others on the whole?
 

Svrtnsse

Staff
Article Team
I think what's really important to keep in mind is that when talking about privilege in these terms we're talking about generalisations and averages. We're not talking about the situations of specific individuals. There will always be exceptions that fall outside the norm, and there will probably be a lot of them.

Every straight, white, male is not automatically more privileged than every black, lesbian, female. But, if you compare the average of all straight, white, males, with the average of all black, lesbian, females you'll probably find that the average SWM is more privileged than the average BLF - on average.

However, I have a difficult time fathoming that a guy like me would be objectively more "privileged" than, say, a black lesbian who had all her stuff together and didn't have my self-loathing tendencies.

Now we're talking an individual case, and then the rules of generalisations apply. Gender, skin colour, and sexual orientation isn't everything, but it's what we first see of a person (except the sexual orientation maybe). Clearly, it sounds like you're nowhere nearly as well off as the person you're comparing yourself to, but would a person who doesn't know either of you be aware of that? They'd just see a white male and a black female and that's that.

Another way of looking at it is: is your self-loathing a direct consequence exclusively of you being a straight, white, male, or does it come from something else?

Comparing whether your gender and skin colour makes you more or less privileged than someone of a different gender and skin colour and then factoring in your personal negative factors and the other person's positive factors isn't going to result in a fair comparison. To get a fair comparison of skin colour and gender you'd have to assume that all other factors are equal.
Do you believe that you'd have felt more or less privileged if instead of being straight, white and male, you had been homosexual, black and female - with everything else being the same (as close as possible).


Also, I'm not trying to judge you here. You sound like you're having a pretty shitty time of it. I'm not going to pretend I understand, but I hope you manage to keep it in check.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
Jabrosky, I think you're looking at this wrong and conflating issues that don't belong together. My son goes to kindergarten at a school that is almost entirely minority students and staff. On the first day of school, after sending off the kids to the classroom, a number of parents were asking to speak with the teacher, and the guy at the gate told every single person no. Except me. When I asked, the teacher was brought out, spoke with me for a minute, and returned to class without speaking to anyone else. It's hard to isolate why - I mean, it really is, I speak and carry myself differently from the others that were there - but it's also hard to ignore the obvious.

Really, I could say a lot about these issues, and probably anger every person on the internet. I will try not to. But Jabrosky, you're conflating "privilege" - as used in these discussions - with, I don't know, happiness or prosperity or wealth. It's an easy mistake to make, and many people are inconsiderate in the way they throw around the word. I don't know how much people include mental issues in these discussions, but what you're describing sounds a lot different than privilege or a lack there of.

Jabrosky, you need to speak with a mental health expert as soon as possible. If you already have one, fire them and get someone else. I've known a number of people who have struggled with Asperger's Syndrome, and you sound to me like you may have an additional mental health condition that's being overlooked because of your Asperger's.

Suicidal thoughts and behaviors are not healthy or normal, and neither is the belief that you are subhuman. These are signs that you need immediate professional medical assistance. Seek help. Treatments are available.
 

Jabrosky

Banned
On a completely unrelated note relative to my last post, doesn't anyone else think toy stores are a bit sexist? Toys for girls always get 1-2 aisles that are colored pink, whereas toys for boys always take up the rest of the store and have multiple color schemes. It's like girls have only a tiny section of the store to browse from while their male counterparts get to explore much vaster terrain.

Oh, and they should make more action figures for girls. Less Barbie and more Lara Croft.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
On a completely unrelated note relative to my last post, doesn't anyone else think toy stores are a bit sexist? Toys for girls always get 1-2 aisles that are colored pink, whereas toys for boys always take up the rest of the store and have multiple color schemes. It's like girls have only a tiny section of the store to browse from while their male counterparts get to explore much vaster terrain.

In the industry many of those aisles are considered gender neutral toys. The boy section may be larger - offhand I can only assume so, I haven't been in these stores in a while - but it's not as bad as "girls get two aisles, boys get everything else."


Oh, and they should make more action figures for girls. Less Barbie and more Lara Croft.

There have been a number of efforts to expand the selection of toys for girls into non-traditional areas and a lot of them have failed, at least in mass market retail. I could only speculate as to why. But retail is a horrible place where crappy old products never die and the good stuff gets ignored. For a less contentious example, Scrabble and Monopoly are both terrible games on objectively qualifiable levels, and people who follow board games (which I've recently taken to) all know it. Yet, I can't find the well-reviewed, awesome games that I want to play anywhere but a specialty retail store, or Amazon.

That's retail. It's dominated by impulse buys and branding. Very little of what people do in a retail store involves actual decision making processes.

Competing with Barbie on impulse buys just isn't that easy.
 

Mindfire

Istar
O yes I forget.


Thanks to remind me about Video Games and Women from there.

Sorry to reply to an old post but GOOD LORD THE START OF THAT VIDEO IS TERRIFYING. Seriously. It comes right the heck out of nowhere and I was more than a bit unnerved by it. Talk about uncanny valley.
 
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