George r.r. Martin’s 20 quotes on writing

[Ankari]

I'm reading the twenty collected tips from GRRM to writers on writing. I though others would like to read it as well. Read it, then post your opinion(s).

 

[Penpilot]

I like number 7.

 

[Nobby]

I do hope he's joking about number three!

Paraphrasing, he knows the start and end for every (every!) character, but not exactly how they get there...sort of like knowing how to play a piano concerto without knowing 2/3 of the piece.

Pity he's so bloody good at it!

 

[Jamber]

Great set of quotes! I loved 16:

"As for 'too much description,' well, opinions differ. We write the books we want to read. And I want to read books that are richly textured and full of sensory detail [...]"

Thanks,
Jennie

 

[Steerpike]

I do hope he's joking about number three!

Paraphrasing, he knows the start and end for every (every!) character, but not exactly how they get there...sort of like knowing how to play a piano concerto without knowing 2/3 of the piece.

Pity he's so bloody good at it!

I agree with #3. I think I liked quotes #2 and #3 the best.

 

[SineNomine]

I hate 2.

I mean, the broad gist of most of part of it is undeniably true: Read a lot, read broadly, and write a lot are all super important. But he takes time to flog his personal bugaboo of fanfiction, which is silly.

And advice that people should start with short stories before they tackle novels is a pretty "old guard" opinion that most people now disagree with. Admittedly, he is definitely an author that has done tremendous things with both novels and short stories but the better advice nowadays is to write short stories if you want to write short stories and write novels if you want to write novels. Writing short stories teaches you a hell of a lot about writing short stories and only a small amount about writing novels.

Other than that, it's also a poorly constructed grouping of GRRM quotes. 1 and 20 are the same. 9 and 13 are on the exact same subject and say, fundamentally, the same thing. Same with 8 and 17.

Maybe I am just feeling particularly curmudgeonly...

 

[Chessie]

^^ I'm with you on this. People should write whatever they want to, period. About the sex one...sure, I get it. Its a natural part of life. But not all readers want their share of it in their fantasy novels, and not all writers are willing to go there...and there's nothing wrong with either of those. To say it should be included was eye rolling. Personally, I have no problems including it in a story if it fits, but if it doesn't, then who cares?

Besides that, all the others were reasonable. I understand what he means about #2 though. New writers should get used to what it feels like creating your own world and characters. But if writing fanfic is your passion, then go for it.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

As I'm sure everyone can imagine, I'm behind #5 all the way.

However, #3 irks me a bit. I hate it when famous writers say things like "I hate outlines." I think it sends a dangerous message to new writers who think "Wow! I can skip a huge step and still be great!" And they do that and in their inexperience end up with a huge mess and are left dispirited and frustrated. What Martin fails to mention here is that he's been a working TV writer for years and years even before starting ASOIAF and that he's been working on that for 20 years now - he doesn't need an outline at this point because he IS the outline.

#10 I identify with completely. That's exactly how I write! *does happy dance*

And omg I love this so much!

We read fantasy to find the colors again, I think. To taste strong spices and hear the songs the sirens sang. There is something old and true in fantasy that speaks to something deep within us, to the child who dreamt that one day he would hunt the forests of the night, and feast beneath the hollow hills, and find a love to last forever somewhere south of Oz and north of Shangri-La.

They can keep their heaven. When I die, I’d sooner go to middle Earth.

 

[Steerpike]

How do you know whether he ever used outlines to any great extent? I don't think you have to outline just because you are inexperienced. Being a discovery writer is just as valid for newbies.

 

[Kevlar]

^^ I'm with you on this. People should write whatever they want to, period. About the sex one...sure, I get it. Its a natural part of life. But not all readers want their share of it in their fantasy novels, and not all writers are willing to go there...and there's nothing wrong with either of those. To say it should be included was eye rolling. Personally, I have no problems including it in a story if it fits, but if it doesn't, then who cares?

I didn't so much read this as "put in sex scenes" as "don't avoid the subject of sex". If it comes up, don't bury it (unless of course it's a children's story). Doesn't mean you have to force sexual content, just means that there isn't any reason to run from the mere mention of sex in a book geared to more mature audiences.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Whenever I see advice from a famous writer, especially one I love to read, I don't think of the advice as a formula for success.

I do try to find ideas or concepts that maybe I haven't tried or methods I haven't considered. It shouldn't be about this or that writer being right or wrong. These are merely a telling of what they've found to work.

I can't totally forego an outline but I don't strictly adhere to one either. I can't be a pure gardener. ....There's a lot of advice here that I agree with. It fits with what I'm already doing. Some of it is contrary to my current process. That's okay. I'm not GRRM or King or anyone else.

Further, I don't think he was "flogging" fanfic writers. Seems to me he has a vast amount of experience in TV writing which, in a way, bears similarities to writing fan-fiction. The writer works in a world that is either the creation of another or the creation of a group which he/she is only a small cog in the machine. Perhaps he feels that his writing and abilities took greater leaps when everything was a creation of his own mind. That's worth some level of consideration whether or not you agree.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

How do you know whether he ever used outlines to any great extent? I don't think you have to outline just because you are inexperienced. Being a discovery writer is just as valid for newbies.

For starters, he actually complains about having had to outline extensively in #17.

I'm not saying new writers have to outline, just that it's dangerous for established writers to flaunt that they don't and new writers suffer for that. Discovery writing can be fun, but it's not without significant drawbacks that discovery writers conveniently forget to mention to new writers, like massive cutting and revision. Martin is an every day writer, and still takes years to produce those door stops of his because he is a discovery writer. Stephen King claimed to never outline and had to eat those words, later. Laurell K. Hamilton writes stream of consciousness with only a wall of posties to guide her, drops subplots like hot potatoes and has a cast of characters whose features and ages change such with alarming frequency that her publisher finally assigned her a continuity editor.

I think a very experienced writer who's been through the trenches can choose any writing method they desire, but they really need to realize that they have a significant influence on the writers coming up behind them who are looking to them for guidance and advice in a profession that is largely an apprenticeship/trial and error system. When they make flippant remarks like "I hate outlines" they send a message, and that message can be destructive to writers who are still learning to ride this dragon.

 

[Chessie]

Kevlar, I understood his message the same as you did, I was just adding on further comment.

AE Lowan, I agree with you. Its important for new writers to try out different things, not just taboo something because an established author says so. I like reading all these suggestions from famous authors since there's always a consistency: read and write, do what feels right.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

When they make flippant remarks like "I hate outlines" they send a message, and that message can be destructive to writers who are still learning to ride this dragon.

Destructive how?

What's the worst that can happen? A new writer experiments with discovery writing? Maybe they spend some time learning it doesn't work for them, maybe they find out it works well. Either way, the time spent writing & trying new things is not wasted effort, but necessary for growth.

We should all try new methods and concepts...searching for those that work for us & developing our own processes. Experimentation and emulation is key in a writer's development.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Destructive how?

What's the worst that can happen? A new writer experiments with discovery writing? Maybe they spend some time learning it doesn't work for them, maybe they find out it works well. Either way, the time spent writing & trying new things is not wasted effort, but necessary for growth.

We should all try new methods and concepts...searching for those that work for us & developing our own processes. Experimentation and emulation is key in a writer's development.

Well, the worst that can happen is a new writer gets bogged down, lost, frustrated, and gives up while wondering why "everyone else" can do it and not them. Obviously they're not good enough, they should stop trying, and they close their notebooks and sign up to major in accounting. I went to an arts school - they really are that emo. BUT, that's the worst case scenario.

I completely agree that new writers should try everything and find what works and what doesn't work for them. That's what being in the trenches is all about. What I'm saying is that when the big guys say things like "I hate outlines. They take the fun out of writing" they need to explain that when they choose that creative road they consciously complicate their creative process - which is a valid choice, if you know what you're getting into. But when they say things like that what beginning writers hear is, "Don't outline. It's a killjoy." So they just flat out don't, because their idols don't, without considering the why's. That's why it's potentially destructive.

 

[BWFoster78]

I'm not saying new writers have to outline, just that it's dangerous for established writers to flaunt that they don't and new writers suffer for that.

It's not exactly a secret that there are two types of writers, those who like discovery and those who like to outline. Why is it GRRM's, or any other author's, responsibility to include a dissertation on the subject every time he voices his preference?

With information so easy to find, it's really up to a newbie to figure out what works for them. If someone reads a quote like the one you're referring to and it sends them down a wrong path, I think it's their own fool fault.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Well, the worst that can happen is a new writer gets bogged down, lost, frustrated, and gives up while wondering why "everyone else" can do it and not them. Obviously they're not good enough, they should stop trying, and they close their notebooks and sign up to major in accounting.

If a person is going to give up because a famous writer's advice didn't work for them, they never really wanted to be a writer in the first place.

 

[ThinkerX]

1. “The best fantasy is written in the language of dreams. It is alive as dreams are alive, more real than real … for a moment at least … that long magic moment before we wake.”

Yes, some of my writing was an attempt to put dreams to paper. Pity I have so few interesting dreams anymore.

2. “The most important thing for any aspiring writer, I think, is to read! And not just the sort of thing you’re trying to write, be that fantasy, SF, comic books, whatever. You need to read everything. Read fiction, non-fiction, magazines, newspapers. Read history, historical fiction, biography. Read mystery novels, fantasy, SF, horror, mainstream, literary classics, erotica, adventure, satire.

Yes...always been a big reader.

These days, I meet far too many young writers who try to start off with a novel right off, or a trilogy, or even a nine-book series. That’s like starting in at rock climbing by tackling Mt. Everest.”

Reminds me of quite a few posters here...and myself, long ago.

3. “I hate outlines. I have a broad sense of where the story is going; I know the end, I know the end of the principal characters, and I know the major turning points and events from the books, the climaxes for each book, but I don’t necessarily know each twist and turn along the way. That’s something I discover in the course of writing and that’s what makes writing enjoyable. I think if I outlined comprehensively and stuck to the outline the actual writing would be boring.”

Pretty much the way I do things, though I spent a *lot* of time working through one scenario after another, and I *still* end up hitting road blocks.

He repeats this with the 'architects and gardners' thing.

 

[SineNomine]

Further, I don't think he was "flogging" fanfic writers. Seems to me he has a vast amount of experience in TV writing which, in a way, bears similarities to writing fan-fiction. The writer works in a world that is either the creation of another or the creation of a group which he/she is only a small cog in the machine. Perhaps he feels that his writing and abilities took greater leaps when everything was a creation of his own mind. That's worth some level of consideration whether or not you agree.

GRRM is notorious as being absolutely, ridiculously, COMPLETELY against fan fiction in general and absolutely fan fiction using his creations in specific. It isn't anything specific he said in that quote, it's a reinforcement of what he has said elsewhere. S good number of authors started at a very young age with fan fiction and while they may have learned more when they moved on to original creations, it wasn't useless and it sure wasn't "lazy". It's almost always an easy introduction into writing fiction in general and eventually leads to you moving on to your own worlds.

 

[Spider]

Well, the worst that can happen is a new writer gets bogged down, lost, frustrated, and gives up while wondering why "everyone else" can do it and not them. Obviously they're not good enough, they should stop trying, and they close their notebooks and sign up to major in accounting.

Whether or not beginners are impacted by the opinions of their idols, they're going to have to get used to failure before they can start being successful in their writing. If a new writer gets frustrated and gives up for something like that, imagine how they would react if they submitted something for publishing and got rejected.

What I'm saying is that when the big guys say things like "I hate outlines. They take the fun out of writing" they need to explain that when they choose that creative road they consciously complicate their creative process - which is a valid choice, if you know what you're getting into. But when they say things like that what beginning writers hear is, "Don't outline. It's a killjoy." So they just flat out don't, because their idols don't, without considering the why's. That's why it's potentially destructive.

As a beginning writer myself, I did not read it like that. I agree with BWFoster78 that it would be the fault of the writer for misinterpreting the quote. Established writers shouldn't need to baby proof their opinions.