Gods and Deities interference in your world

[HaydenCreed]

Hello,
I am having kind of hard time trying to make it Paramount in my fantasy world that there are gods and deities but they are not interfering in lives of mortals.

There are races that don’t even believe in gods so that might be easier, but how would people that believe in their god still believe, if it wont help them during their hard times (mostly refering to the 70 year war against hordes of demons). For instance for the whole time races of the world are hollding off demonic forces for those 70 years without any progress or conquering any portion of land. Holy Order is leading the defence but their god is not helping them in any way… How would they keep their faith?

 

[Finchbearer]

I think it depends what you mean by ‘interfering’. It’s usually in the nature of a polytheistic pantheon of gods to have roles for each mortal aspect of life, such as life, death, harvests, war, fertility etc.

Gods are usually also tied to the fate of each mortal, so if someone is fated to go to war, and die, the gods of death and war with be interacting with those actions.

Interfering suggests something outside of the norm, but even then, where something like fate is concerned, perhaps it’s something that was ‘always meant to happen’.

I have a lot of this in one of my fantasy’s stories that is mainly inspired by Anglo-Saxon mythology, and the pantheon of gods are a blend of these ideas. Any interaction they have with mortals is essentially meant to be.

 

[Prince of Spires]

A few questions: Why do you have gods if they don't interfere? Why don't they interfere? And why do people know about them if they never interfere?

As for why people still care about them if they don't interfere, just look at our own world. The Christian God hasn't done anything major in the past 2.000 years or so, and yet there are still Christians. Even longer for the Jewish God. The reason is two-fold I think.

Firstly, many people see signs of God in small and medium sized things. Wonders are still a thing, but people also feel blessed by God if they have some good fortune. I don't know if God steps in or not, but even if he doesn't, people can still feel like he does. I think there's even a story in the bible about this, where some guy travels to a city and along the way he meets several people who warn him not to go there. Each time the guy responds "God will look after me." He gets to the place and whatever he was warned about happens (could be he dies, that happens a lot in the bible). When he meets God he complains that God should have looked after him. At which point God answers "I sent all these people to warn you and you didn't listen."

The other side is that God rules the afterlife and has a strong say in who gets in and who doesn't. Plenty of people lead a good life because they believe it will get them to heaven.

Both of these factors will occur in your world. People will believe the gods did something, simply because they had good fortune or will believe the gods to be angry just because they had bad fortune. Everyone believes they are special, thus the gods favor them. And they will fear death and hope that appeasing some god will give them an easy pass into the afterlife.

 

[Finchbearer]

how would people that believe in their god still believe, if it wont help them during their hard times

I think you’d be better asking; how does keeping faith help someone deal with hardship? Particularly with monotheisms, like Christianity, their god is representative of the answer to the unknown and unpredictability. If someone is going through hardship, it might be better to believe there is someone out there who will be either physically or metaphorically be with them. In psychology practices, the relationship between psychologist and client is much the same model. You have someone who is just there to make you feel listened to and understood in a non-judgemental way. The psychologist cannot take away your problems, but can work to help you deal with them better.

 

[Orc Knight]

Well, one of my fantasy worlds the gods (and demons), were put into a non interference clause after a massive war against the undead that pretty much everyone was at fault for more or less causing the apocalypse. Granted, they are tied on the honor system and the fact some of the mortals can straight up end them. Though plenty of fantasy tends to hold that same non interference clause so as to not escalate things to that point.

On the other hand, the fantasy world I'm currently working on the deities also are there, but also not. The great powers are usually something that happened long in the past (and may be real events too). Though they are there, just showing up in ways that viewpoint characters may not see them as such. Or see them in other things and hold conversations with them. But it's vague enough that it could well be hallucinations too. As the author, yes, I know they're interfering and showing up, but for the characters, it's entirely dependent on their faith.

As for holding faith in the hard times, especially under demon attacks? Well, that would seem like the point faith is the highest. Though there'll always be those who break after decades of warfare with the literal hells, it'd still be a cornerstone and the Holy Orders could keep using that to hold people together as a community. And if the gods aren't doing anything like signs, wonders, miracles or smiting? Well, no reason the church and temples couldn't make their own. After all, isn't there an old saying that God only helps those who help themselves? Though why a god isn't interfering in a demonic invasion seems a little off. But hey, it also be a test of faith too. Along with judgement from on high.

 

[CupofJoe]

Are the gods all on the same "side"? Are there friends and foes?
I liked the way gods were involved but also restrained in the Belgariad of David and Leigh Eddings.
If god X helps out one of their believers, then god Y will help out one of theirs to even things up.
Either it becomes pointless for them to intervene or you end up with a war between the gods.

 

[pmmg]

Hello,
I am having kind of hard time trying to make it Paramount in my fantasy world that there are gods and deities but they are not interfering in lives of mortals.

There are races that don’t even believe in gods so that might be easier, but how would people that believe in their god still believe, if it wont help them during their hard times (mostly refering to the 70 year war against hordes of demons). For instance for the whole time races of the world are hollding off demonic forces for those 70 years without any progress or conquering any portion of land. Holy Order is leading the defence but their god is not helping them in any way… How would they keep their faith?

Having no belief in Gods has no impact on whether Gods are real or not, so the problem, for them, also remains...

I would assume by the context, you are suggesting the God's are real, else why worry that they are doing nothing.

Is this based on a D&D world? If so, do the clerics have spells, and are there holy objects to wield about? Those would be examples of the Gods acting.

What is the relationship between Demons and Gods? Why are the Demons able to go about doing their thing?

What is the role of the Demons, what are they trying to achieve, and why does what they are doing get them closer to it?



I suppose I could answer this in many ways, but I think one must first decide on what is real and not real beyond the prime material plane.

Do Zeus and Odin both exist, and are separate gods of separate pantheons? or are they the same god by different names? If Zeus and Odin are both separate Gods, how do they coexist with each other? If Zeus interfered on earth, would Odin care?

Are Zeus and Odin the greatest Gods, or are there powers beyond even them?

My first answer to this is that the conflict is not understood. To say, bad things are happening, and the Gods are showing no power to stop it, is assuming the Gods would want to stop it if they could. Maybe they can stop it, but their purpose in it is different than just beating bad things. Maybe the Gods want something and either the demons are helping them get it, or it does not matter if the demon's are there or not for them to get it. If the Gods just want devout worshipers, a few demons popping up might make people devout.

A second answer is there is something limiting about their direct action, that they care about that demons dont. Such as....appearing on earth may make them vulnerable to death. Or lessen their powers to an extent that they cannot effectively win the conflict in that way.

Or perhaps, the Gods are just angry and waiting for the human's to do something before they will intervene. Maybe they destroyed the temple of Athena and dont know that Athena is still pissed. Maybe that tower of Babel thing got out of hand. Or maybe it is a pre-flood type world, and only a few are meant to survive it.

Another answer might be the Gods are helping, but its not apparent to those on Earth. Suppose there are many earths and the Gods are scattered in wars over all of them.

And it could also be....the Gods are in fact powerless, and the bad guys are winning. Maybe something has come to affect them as well, and separate them from their faithful. Do the demon's have gods too? Maybe the demon gods are contending with regular gods.

 

[Queshire]

With the specific example used you could make it into a clear part of the god's teaching. When you're getting invaded by Demons I imagine a god that's strictly against the divine interfering in the mortal no matter what would hold some appeal.

 

[Miles Lacey]

What I find highly intriguing is how so many people find it difficult to comprehend the idea of deities that don't intervene in the lives of mortals.

I'm a deist. Thus, the idea of a deity that does not intervene in the lives of mortals isn't something that is difficult to comprehend. Deists also reject divine revelation. Yet, we still have prayer, rituals, ceremonies and religious services. The notions of good and bad still exist as we still have the weight of divine judgement waiting for us when we die. The difference is we don't hide behind so-called holy books or divine revelations as justifications for our actions. We were given free agency to do whatever we choose to do but it doesn't mean there aren't consequences in either the mortal realm or beyond.

Hence, when you are creating a society in which the divine entities do not intervene in any way in the lives of mortals there isn't a necessity to change things too much except for rewording prayers, scriptures and rituals to reflect the fact their deity does not interfere in their mortal lives.

 

[pmmg]

What I find highly intriguing is how so many people find it difficult to comprehend the idea of deities that don't intervene in the lives of mortals.

Its not difficult to comprehend. Just one possibility among many.

If that was the answer the oper wanted there would be no need for his question.

 

[Miles Lacey]

Its not difficult to comprehend. Just one possibility among many.

If that was the answer the oper wanted there would be no need for his question.

Good point.

I over-emphasized the first part but not the second part in which the question was posed as to how one maintains their faith when people battling demons in a prolonged war and they are dealing with deities that don't intervene in mortal affairs.

I would argue that a major emphasis of a faith that has a deity that doesn't intervene would be that if one fell on the field of battle they will receive a reward much greater than what they would gain in the mortal world. The knowledge of a great reward in the afterlife is a great incentive to encourage the faithful. This is what motivates many religious terrorists. They would also be motivated by the more immediate need to defend family, friends, neighbours and others from the demonic hordes.

Consider Buddhism where there is no divine intervention (as far as I recall) but there is a rich mythology built around morally good, bad and ambiguous spirits meddling in people's lives in most countries where Buddhism is widely practised. In the battle against the demonic forces the faithful could also be motivated to keep on fighting through the encouragement or intervention of spirits of some sort.

 

[Finchbearer]

Buddhism by many is also considered to not be a religion, or certainly it is a non-theistic religion that can be viewed more as a philosophy.

On intervention, how far are we taking the term? If you have deities or a deity that you believe in and they influence your way of life, surely they are intervening.

 

[Graybles]

As far as creation Mythology goes in Fantasy stories it's always fun to tinker a bit with gods/goddesses you can spice up your world a lot. If the premise of your world is believable the immersion of the reader will be easier. Gods can help you achieve that. A plausible way for your world to have come into being is icing on the cake.
You can start your story; you can finish that first draft. But sometimes you'll find it hard to draw people in for no reason at all. That is when you ease in the reader into your world with a bit of lore, give then a 3-page background of: "Hey, this is the world, this is where it came from and this is where you are now." Keep it short, sweet and to the point.
Later when they want to know more you can always elaborate on it or write up a small book of in-depth lore.

 

[Aldarion]

When it comes to gods' interference in my world, I am considering an approach that is diametrically opposed to that of GRRM: what people consider "magic" is really gods' interference, because gods basically "permeate" the world. So if you follow a religion that worships water spirits (basically minor gods), you get water magic. And of course, you also get visions and miracles that definitely aren't magic.

 

[JessMahler]

For instance for the whole time races of the world are hollding off demonic forces for those 70 years without any progress or conquering any portion of land. Holy Order is leading the defence but their god is not helping them in any way… How would they keep their faith?

I am Jewish, and reading this, I can't help remembering the reactions of many to the Shoah. "If there is a God, he will need to beg my forgiveness" one said.
But others found ways to hold Passover Seders in concentration camps and recited prayers each morning they were able.

So the first thing is, you need to accept that many won't have kept faith. Maybe they leave the order. Maybe they stay because they are fighting to protect their friends and comrades and no long to serve the gods. Some may defect, turning on the order entirely. Maybe they turn to other gods.

Then there will be those who cling to faith in desperation. The gods have not failed them yet, because they have not lost. They are still alive to fight. As long as they keep fighting, keep praying, keeping holding the holidays and rituals, they will have hope that the gods will help them. Some will become fanatics, believing that if they can only find the 'right' way to worship (and force others to do the same) then the gods will finally come and intervene.

Lastly will be those with true faith. Those who not only believe in, but /trust/ the gods. They know that if the gods do not interfere, there is a reason. That so long as they do their best and abide by the teachings of the gods, the gods will not abandon them. For these, the war is a forge that burns away the impurities of their faith, leaving on pure commitment. Others may find their 'simple' piety obnoxious or annoying, but they are the first to lead the charge, the last to give up the fight, and the ones that can always be relied on to support their comrades no matter what.

 

[Gurkhal]

Its all about the story you want to tell. I don't have gods interfere in my stories in a way that characters and readers can directly link to said divine powers but then again I'm not really interested in the gods as characters in my stories and such they don't act like it.

Divine forces can have many other ways to be part of a story as motivation, copying, inspiration, explination and such which affects what actions characters take or don't take. Just because a deity don't throw thunderbolts or appear in person don't mean that this deity has no influence or role in the story.

 

[ThinkerX]

In my worlds, the divine and infernal come in different flavors.

Lovecraft gets part of the blame for that situation. The cosmos is Lovecraftian, dotted with utterly alien beings of immense power regarded as gods in many worlds, often identified with local deities. They are regarded as malevolent, chaotic, or indifferent, though some have positive aspects. Many subsist partially on mortal life energy and imbue selected mortals with occult powers to maintain bloody civilizations upon which to feed. A very few are beneficial in utterly alien ways.

The other type of divinity is 'guiding spirits sent from above' - the astral realms far removed from the mortal spheres. These spirits are beneficial, offering consoling and spiritual guidance to mortals. While they sometimes 'possess' enchanted statues and mystic objects, they mostly meld with the souls of those deemed worthy. These individuals are regarded as 'holy men' or 'Saints,' who often wander about incognito. What they don't do, save in direst emergency or defense of others, is initiate acts of violence. Instead, via sermons and spells, they will stiffen the moral of worthy mortals. Alas, some have fallen...