Grammar.. Grrrr so annoying

[miltonclaude]

Hello all.

so I’m listening to some Chinese pod podcasts because… I like to punish myself and their podcasts are rather terrible. They go on and on about grammar, “lexical chunks” and explaining xy and z mostly in English… it’s quite annoying and I’m glad I stopped listening to their podcasts because I was stuck thinking it was helpful and wondering why my Chinese wasn’t improving though I was forcing myself to listen to so many podcasts.

Anyway, very interesting to look back at their podcast and their philosophy before I delete them from my computer.

In my opinion, the reason it is so annoying to me is that it contributes nothing to my understanding, They were talking about a pattern in Chinese, but the meaning of the sentence seemed so obvious that talking about some pattern only distracts from understanding it. I find I remember what they were talking about in English, but I remember nothing of what was said in Chinese.

anyhow, if you want a way to not teach a language look no further than Chinese pod… perhaps it has worked for someone, but they must have more tolerance for incessant babble about stuff that is not interesting

 

[miltonclaude]

Hello all.

so I’m listening to some Chinese pod podcasts because… I like to punish myself and their podcasts are rather terrible. They go on and on about grammar, “lexical chunks” and explaining xy and z mostly in English… it’s quite annoying and I’m glad I stopped listening to their podcasts because I was stuck thinking it was helpful and wondering why my Chinese wasn’t improving though I was forcing myself to listen to so many podcasts.

Anyway, very interesting to look back at their podcast and their philosophy before I delete them from my computer.

In my opinion, the reason it is so annoying to me is that it contributes nothing to my understanding, They were talking about a pattern in Chinese, but the meaning of the sentence seemed so obvious that talking about some pattern only distracts from understanding it. I find I remember what they were talking about in English, but I remember nothing of what was said in Chinese.

anyhow, if you want a way to not teach a language look no further than Chinese pod. im stuck with no longer with the company phrase… perhaps it has worked for someone, but they must have more tolerance for incessant babble about stuff that is not interesting

thanks in advance for any help

 

[pmmg]

Howdy milton. Welcome here.

Important lesson. Dont go to the chinese to learn grammar.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

English Lang and Lit has been the foundation of my education my entire life. My mom was an author and so it was expected would I be. So, of course, English grammar utterly eluded me. High school, college, story submission, all tried and all failed. Until I took Latin at university. Latin grammar made perverse sense, and I was able to carry the concepts forward into English.

Didn't make me much better at English, but fortunately one of my degrees is in razzle dazzle, so not many people notice. Also, I married my editor and then kept her selfishly to myself for 30+ years. I make words pretty. She makes me sound smert.

 

[Mad Swede]

Grammar patterns matter - and I write that as someone who is severely dyslexic. Those patterns vary with language and so what makes a sentence comprehensible in one language may make the same sentence completely incomprehensible in another language. It is nothing like as obvious as you might think.

For a wonderfully humorous example try reading Asterix in Britain in English and then read it in the original French (Astérix chez les Bretons).

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Grammar patterns matter - and I write that as someone who is severely dyslexic. Those patterns vary with language and so what makes a sentence comprehensible in one language may make the same sentence completely incomprehensible in another language. It is nothing like as obvious as you might think.

For a wonderfully humorous example try reading Asterix in Britain in English and then read it in the original French (Astérix chez les Bretons).

*In a saucy French accent* Oh no, I have been burned by you before... you multilingual people, you.

Yeah, my wife's also dyslexic. The only reason she's as functional as she is now is because she learned to read before she learned to write. When she started writing what she saw was when the wheels came off that wagon.

Now that I think about it, I know a lot of dyslexic writers. Neat!

As I'm sure you're abundantly aware, but maybe not everyone is, there are grammatical structures in English, orders descriptions need to follow to be understood at first glance, in ways that many languages both lack and lack the vocabularies to even conceptualize before sitting down and really studying. And it doesn't help that English is not just a language killer, it's like this giant amoeba that just slurps up all the words and keeps them. At the rate of thousands a year. Makes my little greedy heart twitterpate, but most other languages get a bit pissed when you start stealing their grammar.

 

[skip.knox]

I can't tell if you are criticizing Chinese podcasting or criticizing grammar as a body of learning. Arguably there are such things as *good* podcasts about the Chinese language. Arguably there are such things as good podcasts that you personally find useful.

I don't, however, buy the proposition that grammar is a hindrance to learning a language. I've learned three. Grammar is not only useful to know, it can occasionally be downright interesting. One of the nifty things about grammar is this: the more you know about it, the less you have to think about it.

 

[Finchbearer]

The OP is talking about the company ChinesePod, who make podcasts…

 

[Prince of Spires]

I don't, however, buy the proposition that grammar is a hindrance to learning a language. I've learned three. Grammar is not only useful to know, it can occasionally be downright interesting.

For some languages, knowing the grammar is essential if you want to make any sense of it. Latin is the obvious example, where if you try to only learn the words and then read stuff, you'll get nowhere. German is probably another one, though I never bothered learning that other than enough words to order drinks in a bar and yell at people while skiing.

For english it's less essential since it's a fairly simple language in terms of structure and conjugations. Most languages fall somewhere in the middle, where you can learn it without the grammar, but it sure helps.

 

[Ban]

For some languages, knowing the grammar is essential if you want to make any sense of it. Latin is the obvious example, where if you try to only learn the words and then read stuff, you'll get nowhere. German is probably another one, though I never bothered learning that other than enough words to order drinks in a bar and yell at people while skiing.

For english it's less essential since it's a fairly simple language in terms of structure and conjugations. Most languages fall somewhere in the middle, where you can learn it without the grammar, but it sure helps.

Standard German has a whole lot of grammar rules, but you don't need to strictly follow them if you simply wish to make yourself known, especially considering the many, many distinct dialects German has.

 

[Mad Swede]

OK, I'll write it again. Grammar patterns matter.

You need them to make your grammar checker work in your word processing package (and in my dyslexia software). They're needed in order to make things like Chat GPT work.

But, as a writer (even a dyslexic one like me) you need to know your grammar patterns. Breaking a grammar rule, convention or pattern is sometimes exactly what you need to do, whether that be for emotional impact, emphasis, humour (as in Astérix chez les Bretons) or just as a writing style choice. And you can't make that decision without knowing what it is you're trying to do and how you're going to do it.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

I'm down with knowing the rule before you break it. Fiction grammar, in the end, is making yourself understood. If you break grammar and become confusing, it best be on purpose.

OK, I'll write it again. Grammar patterns matter.

You need them to make your grammar checker work in your word processing package (and in my dyslexia software). They're needed in order to make things like Chat GPT work.

But, as a writer (even a dyslexic one like me) you need to know your grammar patterns. Breaking a grammar rule, convention or pattern is sometimes exactly what you need to do, whether that be for emotional impact, emphasis, humour (as in Astérix chez les Bretons) or just as a writing style choice. And you can't make that decision without knowing what it is you're trying to do and how you're going to do it.

 

[Queshire]

Hm? I'm confused. Can someone provide an example of what you mean by grammar patterns?

 

[Nighty_Knight]

Yeah. My wife is an English teacher and grammar is one of her pet peeves. I don’t let her read anything I have written. And that even goes for letters to people. She could be my biggest help, but she is instead horrifically brutal. My grammar is kinda bad, but not that far off from the average person. To her the average person should never made it passed the 5th grade.

 

[Malik]

Latin grammar made perverse sense, and I was able to carry the concepts forward into English.

My grandfather and my mother taught us to read English by learning the Latin and Greek etymologies as we went. I see words when I think and talk, so this has been immensely helpful. English was very easy to grasp, taught this way. "English doesn't borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down a dark alley, beats the crap out of them, and goes through their pockets looking for loose terminology."

 

[A. E. Lowan]

I make grammar checkers cry.

My grandfather and my mother taught us to read English by learning the Latin and Greek etymologies as we went. I see words when I think and talk, so this has been immensely helpful. English was very easy to grasp, taught this way. "English doesn't borrow from other languages. English follows other languages down a dark alley, beats the crap out of them, and goes through their pockets looking for loose terminology."

Brief derailment:

Isn't hypergraphia fun? I don't see the actual words, but I do hear the music in them and it's the main reason I need music - and it's got to be the 'right' music - to write. If I can't play it into the room, it'll play in my head. So it's either Radio Free Lowan in here, or I'm so stopped up the words won't settle and I'm ready to start splitting down the sides.

Do you have the problem of not being able to stop? If I can't write my already fragile mental health goes right down the toilet. Even when I don't feel the pressure of words, when my head is just empty and I'm crashing, there's this little compulsion in the back of my brain that pushes me to write just one more thought. Just one.

Yeah, right.