Punctuation - flow vs grammar

[Steerpike]

I don't know anything about grammar honestly. My friend tried to proofread an essay I sent him and I wasn't even sure what he was talking about in a lot of his suggestions. I don't know the rules or the proper terms for anything.

Everything is instinct for me, which means I do bend the rules...a lot. Sometimes I have wholly ungrammatical sections of text that are just denoting my character's state of mind. I really don't care whether my use of commas is correct or not; I use them as I see fit to make my sentences sound the way I want.

I think that's fine, if done well. You see this in published work, including some of the most well-regarded works out there. When it comes to beginners, I suppose the tension is between the point of view that says "Hey, you aren't James Joyce yet, do it the way I tell you" and the approach that says "I don't know if you're James Joyce yet, give it a shot and let's see." Usually, for beginners, the answer is no, you're not Joyce yet, but I lean more heavily toward letting people try to be.

 

[Aurora]

I don't know anything about grammar honestly. My friend tried to proofread an essay I sent him and I wasn't even sure what he was talking about in a lot of his suggestions. I don't know the rules or the proper terms for anything.

Everything is instinct for me, which means I do bend the rules...a lot. Sometimes I have wholly ungrammatical sections of text that are just denoting my character's state of mind. I really don't care whether my use of commas is correct or not; I use them as I see fit to make my sentences sound the way I want.

This is good and bad at the same time. It's good in the sense that we should write according to our own voice, thoughts, habits. We all speak differently and so our storytelling voices reflect how we speak. But this is also bad in that, as a writer, knowing the rules of grammar is highly important especially when it comes to getting work out there. If you're just sharing with friends that's one thing. But if you're publishing or entering contests you'll get ripped to shreds.

Svrtnsse, don't worry so much about the commas and just write. Listen to how it sounds in your head and when you read it out loud. Adjust as needed. Honor your voice.

 

[Gryphos]

Personally I have no problem with the comma in "don't worry, you'll be fine", because the way I look at it, the phrase "don't worry", while technically being it's own clause, functions essentially like an add-on to the second clause, similar to 'however', 'although', etc.

"However, it's not that bad."

"Although, I thought otherwise at first."

"Don't worry, it's not that bad."

It prepositions the following information and accessorises its meaning. Just like 'however' communicates 'the following statement is in contrast to some previous statement', 'don't worry' communicates 'the following statement suggests there is no reason to worry'. Think about how you use the phrase 'don't worry' and similar short phrases in real conversation. Do you hear it as a clause in and of itself, or does it simply accessorise another clause?

It's one of those cases where you have to decide between being 'officially correct' and 'organically functional'. Remember, language is always evolving; sometimes it's worth abandoning dogmatic grammar rules in service of pleasing flow.

 

[FifthView]

Yes, but Elmore Leonard probably never met a comma splice he didn't like, and they're fairly common in works within the same genre (though not only in that genre), so I'd be a bit leery of anyone who had an absolute prohibition against them given the popularity of authors who use them. I think we're back to whether something works or not.

Aha, but the problem is...who says it works or not?

I read a book purchased through Amazon on Kindle that was rife with comma splices, and many cases annoyed me. The weird thing (?) is that I was able to continue the book and ended up liking it. I liked the story, and the readerly-me read with a "gotta watch out for the pot holes" kind of attitude: when the comma splices were the obviously bad kind, I kinda mentally read them as if they were two separate sentences, or with a semicolon, or whatever, and basically "drove around" them. The book did very well on Amazon, and my understanding is that a publisher picked it up (had been self-pubbed I think) and cleaned the grammar for a second release. The next book in the series apparently sucked, according to reviews, so I've not read it.

Some of those comma splices were not so bad, but some led to atrocious ambiguity, lack of clarity, etc.

My general experience is that those writers who don't know what is meant by "comma splice" and why it's usually considered a grammar no-no tend to be unable to tell the difference between a still-clear comma splice and an unclear, ambiguous comma splice. They just splice. Splice, splice, splice.

 

[Steerpike]

Aha, but the problem is...who says it works or not?

Yes, there's the rub. In the case of someone like Elmore Leonard, one can conclude a sufficient number of people think it works to have made him a successful and wealthy writer during his lifetime. When you're just starting, you don't have the kind of exposure you need to get a resounding yea or nay from the marketplace.

My general experience is that those writers who don't know what is meant by "comma splice" and why it's usually considered a grammar no-no tend to be unable to tell the difference between a still-clear comma splice and an unclear, ambiguous comma splice. They just splice. Splice, splice, splice.

I think this is true. If you don't understand the underlying rule, then it is hard to evaluate what you're giving up versus gaining by doing something different.

 

[Malik]

I don't know anything about grammar honestly. My friend tried to proofread an essay I sent him and I wasn't even sure what he was talking about in a lot of his suggestions. I don't know the rules or the proper terms for anything.

Everything is instinct for me, which means I do bend the rules...a lot. Sometimes I have wholly ungrammatical sections of text that are just denoting my character's state of mind. I really don't care whether my use of commas is correct or not; I use them as I see fit to make my sentences sound the way I want.

Yes, but . . .

You have a frightening amount of raw talent. I've read the stuff you've posted, here, and your gift for voice makes me want to kill myself.

HOWEVER . . .

You need to learn the mechanics. Every writer does. The craft is just that: a craft. Writing novels is like watchmaking, or woodworking, or being a concert violinist. It has to be taken as seriously if you want to make a go of it. You can only get so far on your own. To do it professionally, you have to study.

Skill is a function of talent plus training. You'll be hamstringing yourself if you don't learn how, and why, the language works. You don't have to go out and get an MFA, but holy shit, with your gift, get an education in writing: take continuing ed classes, find a mentor, collect books on the craft.

You're good enough that you might make it on raw talent and guts -- I have never said this to anyone before, because I'm a huge advocate of formal education for writers, but you might. But you might not, and my God, it would be criminal for you to fail, or just flounder for 20 years because of a lack of formal training that could have gotten you over a critical hump with a nine-week class or one well-targeted exercise.

The world will be better for it if you correct this deficiency in your skill set. And quickly; I want to see your novels in the front of a bookstore someday.

 

[Svrtnsse]

[...]You don't have to go out and get an MFA, but holy shit, with your gift, get an education in writing: take continuing ed classes, find a mentor, collect books on the craft.
[...]

Or look things up online one by one as you come across them, and then ask questions.

 

[Nimue]

A comment I get now and then from readers is that my prose feels stiff and stilted. It's grammatically correct, but it's dry and lifeless.

One of the reasons for this seems to be my use of punctuation. From what I understand you're meant to use a comma if you connect two clauses with a word like and or but. This seems simple enough, but it seems it can also disrupt the flow of the text.

Slightly tangential to the direction of the discussion, but I just re-read your original post, Svrt and noticed the way you opened it better. Perhaps this is another thread's worth of advice, but I think that if you're getting feedback that your writing is stiff and stilted, grammatical correctness is really unlikely to be the culprit. Maybe it is short, choppy sentences and short clauses, like in that example sentence. Variety is always the best choice. Maybe you need more character voice to leak through, use more vernacular phrasing in your narration (which could lend itself to bending the rules of grammar, to be sure.)

I also remember that you've said you tend to start with a bare-bones version of the scene, just dialogue, and gradually add up beats and level of detail from there. Maybe it would be helpful to start focusing on the flow of the narration as a whole, either during the process or afterwards. Adding bit and bobs might be making you look at individual sentences as being "good" in isolation, but not in the whole poetry of the scene. Even if you don't write linearly, you may need to re-read it linearly. (Is that a word...)

It's hard to know without getting deeper feedback from the people saying these things, and a beta-reader may or may not be able to drill down to why they're getting a certain impression. It's a tough one.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Yes, but Elmore Leonard probably never met a comma splice he didn't like, and they're fairly common in works within the same genre (though not only in that genre), so I'd be a bit leery of anyone who had an absolute prohibition against them given the popularity of authors who use them. I think we're back to whether something works or not.

I wouldn't say I have an absolute prohibition towards anything regarding craft (I know you didn't mean otherwise). I simply don't see the point in choosing a comma splice, over correct grammar, when you get no added effect.

Does a reader pause longer mentally on a period versus a comma?

"Don't worry, I've got this."

"Don't worry. I've got this."

Where's the difference for the reader beyond grammar?

Perhaps there's an example from Leonard's writing that might make me feel differently.

EDIT:
I suppose one use might be to create an informal feel, or in terms of an effect, a breathless ramble of speech or thought.

Also, The Elements of Style allows for exceptions, but recommends infrequent use:

If the clauses are very short, and are alike in form, a comma is usually permissible.

 

[Steerpike]

Where's the difference for the reader beyond grammar?

I suppose it depends on the reader. I do read those differently, mentally, with more of a pause in the second version with the full stop.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I suppose it depends on the reader. I do read those differently, mentally, with more of a pause in the second version with the full stop.

I edited my last with a couple additional points.

And yes, I'd agree the effect may be subjective.

 

[Svrtnsse]

[...]I also remember that you've said you tend to start with a bare-bones version of the scene, just dialogue, and gradually add up beats and level of detail from there. Maybe it would be helpful to start focusing on the flow of the narration as a whole, either during the process or afterwards. Adding bit and bobs might be making you look at individual sentences as being "good" in isolation, but not in the whole poetry of the scene. Even if you don't write linearly, you may need to re-read it linearly. (Is that a word...)[...]

I think this is probably good advice. It's too late for this story, but it's something I'll definitely keep in mind as I start out on my next project, which will be very soon.

 

[Steerpike]

EDIT:
I suppose one use might be to create an informal feel, or in terms of an effect, a breathless ramble of speech or thought.

Also, The Elements of Style allows for exceptions, but recommends infrequent use:

Yes, I think you could certainly create a rambling speech or stream-of-consciousness style in this manner. But even without going that far I think you get a different pace to the story. I mentally "hear" the effect when I'm reading. And that's for a typical third-person narrative. If you're writing in first person, any of these approaches are also going to contribute to characterization--is your narrator stiltingly formal, scatter-brained and rambling, somewhere in between? Does she change with circumstances? etc.

 

[FifthView]

I think this is true. If you don't understand the underlying rule, then it is hard to evaluate what you're giving up versus gaining by doing something different.

This giving up and gaining is an interesting spin on the topic.

The great (or at least popular) writers seem to develop their own styles–and they use their style consistently within a book! I wonder if that's one of the reasons I was able to finish that book that had comma splices throughout. It was a kind of style-by-accident rather than style-by-choice, but once I'd fallen into knowing what to expect, I could mostly deal with it. Sometimes I had to read a sentence multiple times to understand what the author was saying, but most of the comma splices were simply "non-standard" punctuation and still fairly clear.

But there are problems when the stylings aren't consistent in a book–when a comma splice or something else leaps out–or when the stylings seem haphazard. The latter sort seem to be the kind that work sometimes and not others, an accidental kind of thing. Also, I'm not sure that sort is an instance of gaining something, except by accident sometimes.

Manuals of style have "style" in their description, heh. They aren't "manuals of grammar." I think the ultimate goal of both is clarity. They are often thought to be the same thing, manuals of style and rules of grammar. But maybe clarity is about more than clarity of meaning. Clarity of tone, story elements like pacing, aspects of character (in the moment or overall character traits), voice and so forth might be worth considering, and grammar rules don't really address that kind of clarity. I'm not sure how stylistic punctuation choices might address those things, over something like simple word choice and other aspects of sentence construction, but maybe they have effects on these.

So..."What is gained?" might be a good question. Following the so-called rules might lead to general clarity, which is not a bad thing. Especially when readers have a habit of reading already informed by those rules. I think that not losing that clarity is probably the first consideration when deciding to set out on some other stylistic path.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

I think that's fine, if done well. You see this in published work, including some of the most well-regarded works out there. When it comes to beginners, I suppose the tension is between the point of view that says "Hey, you aren't James Joyce yet, do it the way I tell you" and the approach that says "I don't know if you're James Joyce yet, give it a shot and let's see." Usually, for beginners, the answer is no, you're not Joyce yet, but I lean more heavily toward letting people try to be.

The confusing thing is that I score well on tests dealing with this kind of thing (which, in prep for college, I've been having to take a lot.) Apparently I have some kind of instinctive/subconscious knowledge. (???) But I couldn't tell you what the technical term for anything is.

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

I write in first-person a lot. When you're using a character's voice to narrate, you lean pretty heavy toward sounding less proper.

Edit: unless the character would speak in grammatically correct fashion which my character is not that sort

 

[DragonOfTheAerie]

Yes, but . . .

You have a frightening amount of raw talent. I've read the stuff you've posted, here, and your gift for voice makes me want to kill myself.

HOWEVER . . .

You need to learn the mechanics. Every writer does. The craft is just that: a craft. Writing novels is like watchmaking, or woodworking, or being a concert violinist. It has to be taken as seriously if you want to make a go of it. You can only get so far on your own. To do it professionally, you have to study.

Skill is a function of talent plus training. You'll be hamstringing yourself if you don't learn how, and why, the language works. You don't have to go out and get an MFA, but holy shit, with your gift, get an education in writing: take continuing ed classes, find a mentor, collect books on the craft.

You're good enough that you might make it on raw talent and guts -- I have never said this to anyone before, because I'm a huge advocate of formal education for writers, but you might. But you might not, and my God, it would be criminal for you to fail, or just flounder for 20 years because of a lack of formal training that could have gotten you over a critical hump with a nine-week class or one well-targeted exercise.

The world will be better for it if you correct this deficiency in your skill set. And quickly; I want to see your novels in the front of a bookstore someday.

I'm dealing with college applications and such now. I'll probably end up in an English or creative writing major; that's what my research is for. I want to learn.

On the other hand, I'm such a history buff, and the history courses often interest me the most...I swear I'm going to be that person who changes their major 52 times.

 

[Svrtnsse]

I'll need advice on a different sentence now, which I can't quite figure out if it's a comma splice, or something else:

Torkel beamed at her, eyes sparkling with excitement.

When I'm reading it in my head it sounds right, but when I'm reading at it on the screen, it doesn't look right.

Would it be correct to swap the comma for a semicolon?
Torkel beamed at her; eyes sparkling with excitement.
or maybe:
Torkel beamed at her; his eyes sparkling with excitement.

I don't have a problem with changing it to Torkel's eyes sparkled with excitement, but it'd be interesting to know what the correct version of the original sentence would be.

 

[Ireth]

The original sentence is correct. You wouldn't use a semicolon there unless "his eyes sparkling" was "his eyes sparkled".

 

[Svrtnsse]

Argh...

This is so confusing. I should just start writing in emoji instead.

Thanks Ireth.

I did change it to "...eyes sparkled..." though. It sort of works better when it's not directed at someone else.