Great Ideas vs. Great Execution

[FatCat]

This is a forum derived from opinion of knowledge on writing. To post something and then reply with the 'moral high-ground' of asking for a personal message discussion seems a bit dishonest. While I may not agree with Mindfire's statement, I do think that it fits within the discussion here. From what I've gained from your post, you would say that if a writer has the inability to create a great execution of the story, then they should look at screenwriters(?) for inspiration, or give up and find someone who can utilize their ideas in a more substantial manner. Keeping in mind that this is a forum for aspiring writers, I think that this advice goes against the entire nature of the forum itself. Should this not be a place to develop the skills it takes to execute an author's story?

 

[Leif Notae]

This is a forum derived from opinion of knowledge on writing. To post something and then reply with the 'moral high-ground' of asking for a personal message discussion seems a bit dishonest. While I may not agree with Mindfire's statement, I do think that it fits within the discussion here. From what I've gained from your post, you would say that if a writer has the inability to create a great execution of the story, then they should look at screenwriters(?) for inspiration, or give up and find someone who can utilize their ideas in a more substantial manner. Keeping in mind that this is a forum for aspiring writers, I think that this advice goes against the entire nature of the forum itself. Should this not be a place to develop the skills it takes to execute an author's story?

I believe the self-righteous statement was aimed more for the Sanderson remark, but I will accept this as incorrect it if were not.

No, it does not violate the rules of this forum. In fact, it is by being honest and telling them either they can learn everything about the craft or they can do what they like best and give something else over to someone who is good at it. Why labor over something you might hate and get discouraged when you can find someone who loves doing what you hate and you two can work together to release something amazing? This way, you are learning from a partner and you might even do it on your own after a certain time.

There is part of an old adage many people use when they are struggling. "Novelists should turn to scriptwriting to learn structure." It is basic. You build a story out of minimalist parts and then mold your story around it.

Would you rather have me say nothing at all, let someone go out, get discouraged and never write again because they didn't know there were other ways to write?

 

[FatCat]

This may just be my own opinion, but hating something that you've wrote is part of developing as a writer. As far as the thread is concerned, I can see no reason why ideas would trump execution. At the same time, to say that if someone has difficulty developing their ideas into a story that is well written by suggesting that they should partner up with someone else is very strange, in my opinion. It may just be me, but I believe writing to be a very intimate process, and to say, so authoritatively, that if you have difficulties to refer to an outside source to develop those skills is against my own understanding of development as a writer. It is very easy to say truisms, but much more difficult to live by them. As to the discussion itself, I believe execution trumps any idea worth thinking. Ideas are cheap, they are easy to come by, even if they are fantastic. Translating a great idea into a great story is a completely different matter. Though, as I see it, being able to weave a great story within a great idea comes from years of trial and error, not differing to a screenwriter's outlook or any other second party.

 

[Leif Notae]

How else will you learn proper execution, my friend? Even professional writers had people they could turn to, or they went through schooling to learn it. This isn't a sacred, holy quest to find your inner writer and let the magic bubble out. Training is necessary at times.

You must want to improve your execution to find the people who can help you improve your execution, as it were.

 

[FatCat]

It's a process of trial and error. But to say that if you don't have a great execution of a story idea you've been developing for months should only result in two choices (adapting to a screenwriters perspective or finding a co-author who can organize your ideas into a tangible plot) is crazy. It's very easy to say what should be, a logically sound statement that should suffice, and another matter entirely to developing your own skills at executing an idea. My point is this; why should those who suffer from the inability to execute an idea refer to these outside resources to complete their idea, rather than learn from them?

As far as a sacred and holy quest to find your inner writer, although that is a trumped statement, who would disagree that that is something to strive for?

 

[Leif Notae]

And how will they learn from them if they don't have an external source to refer to?

Trial and error is fantastic. If that's your only gig, great. More power to you, I love you, hugs all around.

If you want, REALLY want, to learn writing execution: You look outside as well as within.

 

[Mindfire]

What exactly makes screenwriters the holy grail? Didn't someone mention in another thread that movies are starting to get stale and formulaic?

 

[FatCat]

Reference to external sources is the very definition of creativity, and with that you accept that there are people who can better your own understanding of your story. But to dismiss development as 'your only gig' is far from helpful. If you really, REALLY want to learn execution, don't rely on quotes from forums, but opinions from beta readers and your own understanding of the story.

 

[Leif Notae]

Movies are stale and formulaic because there is nothing creative about remaking a remake. You aren't looking at the other movies out there that can express themselves in a well structured manner. These are the ones every writer should look at, as well as the ones they enjoy, and see what they did to bring the structure out.

With that, I'll excuse myself from this thread and we'll air out our differences in private messages.

To everyone else, I do apologize for this derailment and hostage crisis I created.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Opinions differing is not only constructive but is an essential element of this forum if we are going to grow & learn from one another. (At least in my opinion).

I learn far more from viewpoints expressed that are different than mine or that help me see things in a new light.

There's nothing wrong with argumentative discourse as long as its handled in a civil manner.

 

[Devor]

What exactly makes screenwriters the holy grail?

Because the storytelling with screenwriters is, in a word, tight.

In film, there's no room for the fluff so common in writing, so every last moment contributes to the story in a way that isn't necessarily as true with a book. Combined with the comparatively small time investment it takes to watch a movie, screenwriting makes great case studies for understanding story structure and for keeping scenes on target.

That said, looking cross-medium can only go so far. But if you want to focus on improving plot structure and character arcs - something which, I think, people should be discussing a lot more - then there's plenty in film which can be extremely helpful.

 

[FatCat]

Because the storytelling with screenwriters is, in a word, tight.

In film, there's no room for the fluff so common in writing, so every last moment contributes to the story in a way that isn't necessarily as true with a book. Combined with the comparatively small time investment it takes to watch a movie, screenwriting makes great case studies for understanding story structure and for keeping scenes on target.

That said, looking cross-medium can only go so far. But if you want to focus on improving plot structure and character arcs - something which, I think, people should be discussing a lot more - then there's plenty in film which can be extremely helpful.

The problem, I see, with this outlook is that screenwriting relies on another medium of storytelling, you have actors to relay information for you, so that fluff is just brought out in another form. I can see the benefits of looking at screenwriting to develop a tight story arc, as you say, but then that leaves the execution of that plot in the wind. Maybe as a tool to develop your own abilities in creating a fast-paced plot and character-arc I can see this working, but at the same time without the tools to develop these characters through writing and not relying on actors for subtle character definition then the point is so specific, I can't see how it could be helpful when it comes to implementing the things learned from doing this into a novel. As someone who wishes to be a writer, how does studying great screenwriters have any more impact than studying great novelists?

 

[Mindfire]

I wouldn't say screenwriting is "tight" so much as formulaic.