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"He said" ..."She said" over and over

glutton

Inkling
There are a lot of conventions advocated by professional writers and editors that have the reasoning, "Because there is a better way to do it."

It's a lot easier to throw in an exclamation mark than to choose better words. For my writing, I'm fine with that at the moment. I'd rather concentrate on things that I consider more important than things like eliminating exclamation marks.

If you don't feel like taking the time and effort to write better, that's your choice (as I've chosen to do). Railing against the convention in the manner you did above, however ...

'Better' is subjective, but eschewing exclamation marks for the sake of eschewing them seems counterintuitive and 'artificial' as Russ put it.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
'Better' is subjective, but eschewing exclamation marks for the sake of eschewing them seems counterintuitive and 'artificial' as Russ put it.

You're right - "better" is subjective.

In the case of writing, I lean toward people who are professional editors and writers to define "better."

Maybe you're more confident in your skills than I am in mine, but I don't think that I have any standing to say, "Those professional writers and editors have no idea what they're talking about. I've treated writing as my primary hobby for over four years now! Obviously, I know much more than them!"

I tend to respect the opinions of people who make their living doing something over the opinions of hobbyists. Granted, there are different opinions on any given matter between professionals, but the advice that it's "better" to demonstrate emphasis with word choice than by "artificial" means is pretty consistent.

If I want to elevate my game to mastery of the craft, it's something I'll need to focus on. At the moment, though, there are many other things that I need to improve that I think readers take more notice of.
 

Nimue

Auror
I'm not sold on the blanket advice of eliminating all exclamation points and descriptive speech tags. I understand doing that to avoid false tension, and warning new writers away from sentences like this:

"This is the secret map to the treasure!" Penny exclaimed.

Obviously bollocks. But if you extend that advice to saying no denoted emphasis ever, how do you deal with something like this?

Zach let out a sigh of relief. He'd made it.

"Halt!" a guard shouted, from behind him.

How do we get the reader to assume the guard is shouting in a surprise situation like this? Is that really more efficient or meaningful than the exclamation point? And '"Halt," a guard shouted' just looks odd.

I'm not a big believer in "never ever do this" writing rules. I think a lot of them are "seriously rethink doing this" rules that got overexaggerated.
 
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glutton

Inkling
You're right - "better" is subjective.

In the case of writing, I lean toward people who are professional editors and writers to define "better."

Maybe you're more confident in your skills than I am in mine, but I don't think that I have any standing to say, "Those professional writers and editors have no idea what they're talking about. I've treated writing as my primary hobby for over four years now! Obviously, I know much more than them!"

I tend to respect the opinions of people who make their living doing something over the opinions of hobbyists. Granted, there are different opinions on any given matter between professionals, but the advice that it's "better" to demonstrate emphasis with word choice than by "artificial" means is pretty consistent.

If I want to elevate my game to mastery of the craft, it's something I'll need to focus on. At the moment, though, there are many other things that I need to improve that I think readers take more notice of.

Fair enough if that is the way you approach your craft, but there is also no need to talk down to people who disagree with a convention. And yes, I have more confidence in what I am doing than many since I know exactly the style I am trying to write in. ;)

I also don't see why the exact same paragraph with an exclamation point instead of a period in a sentence dialogue would be automatically 'worse', if the reasoning is that using exclamation points tend to make the writer less careful in choosing words I can see it but it's not as if using an exclamation point precludes you from choosing your words carefully or not using them will necessarily make you choose better words.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
I think it is largely a stylistic preference. Sure, for any given instance a use might be good or bad and such uses have to be judged on their own merits, but at least in fantasy I see plenty of traditionally-published works that use exclamation marks.

Another convention that editors will often tell you to follow is to eliminate the use of italics for internal monologue (i.e. character thoughts), and yet you see that a lot in genre fiction (S/SF/Horror). Less of it in general fiction. The same seems to be true of exclamation marks (i.e. they are used more frequently in genre works than in general fiction).

In any event, all of the various conventions that seem to be generally accepted by editors are worth knowing if you're going to try to sell to those editors. If you're self-publishing you can forge your own path, the only requirement is that you engage the reader.
 

glutton

Inkling
How do we get the reader to assume the guard is shouting in a surprise situation like this?

Something like,

A guard's voice carried over the thumping in his ears, cutting from behind through the settling calm. 'Halt.'

That might sound better in an isolated case, but to do it every time in a book with potentially thousands of line of dialogue would seem pretty forced and not necessarily 'better' IMO.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Something like,

A guard's voice carried over the thumping in his ears, cutting from behind through the settling calm. 'Halt.'

That might sound better in an isolated case, but to do it every time in a book with potentially thousands of line of dialogue would seem pretty forced and not necessarily 'better' IMO.

Even that example would look better with an exclamation mark, imo.
 

Nimue

Auror
I would like to add that there's obviously a hell of a lot of value to advice like this, and when professional writers or editors say "Please...don't do this" the instinct is to say "But not me! Not my writing! I don't have that problem!" But yeah, they mean you, and me, and that sentence I'm writing with my finger hovering over the ! key.

But at the same time, I don't think it's productive to take this advice to its literal extreme, ignoring the spirit or intent behind it. It doesn't make sense to tie yourself into knots avoiding an exclamation point when it's the simplest possible solution, any more than it makes sense to tie yourself into knots avoiding a single adverb or the word "said". Therein lie strange synonyms and convoluted sentence structure.
 
And '"Halt," a guard shouted' just looks odd.

Ah, but that's a true exclamation. Halt! Ouch! Damn! By Gorgolol's beard!

The problem is more in using the exclamation point as tool to make something that is not an exclamation into an exclamation; or, to add to a given line the quality of exclamation, as if it can't stand on its own. I mean, it's a somewhat lazy way to turn a line into something more, which basically points up the fact that the line and context don't do that well enough.

Incidentally, looking back at my examples above of GRRM's use of "croak," I see a similar thing. In those cases, the word a) fits the characters speaking, and b) is used specifically to draw out these aspects of the characters. (Maggy is called "Maggy the Frog." The skull death mask would be dry vocally, croaking. Lady Stoneheart has difficulty speaking because of a certain throat condition....) In other words, the use is fitting for each case. Similarly, in using the exclamation point for Halt! or By Gogolol's beard!, the mark is quite fitting, doesn't add so much to the use of those phrases, i.e. doesn't turn them into something they wouldn't normally be, but rather matches them.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
@Nimue

I get into this discussion a lot, particularly with non-genre writers, when it comes to using italics for character's thoughts. I've heard numerous professional editors and authors say never do it. I heard it again from an agent just last month who works with the big traditional publishers. She said using italics for thoughts immediately flags you as an amateur and not to do it. I've seen the same thing in books on writing by professionals in the field.

OK, so you might consider that advice, particularly if you're going to submit to that editor. But the fact remains that there is a fair amount of traditionally-published fiction that uses italics for thoughts, particularly when you're looking within the fantasy genre. So deference to "authority" has to be tempered by knowing the genre and having confidence in your own style of writing.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
I would like to add that there's obviously a hell of a lot of value to advice like this, and when professional writers or editors say "Please...don't do this" the instinct is to say "But not me! Not my writing! I don't have that problem!" But yeah, they mean you, and me, and that sentence I'm writing with my finger hovering over the ! key.

But at the same time, I don't think it's productive to take this advice to its literal extreme, ignoring the spirit or intent behind it. It doesn't make sense to tie yourself into knots avoiding an exclamation point when it's the simplest possible solution, any more than it makes sense to tie yourself into knots avoiding a single adverb or the word "said". Therein lie strange synonyms and convoluted sentence structure.

I agree completely with Nimue :)

The problem is more in using the exclamation point as tool to make something that is not an exclamation into an exclamation; or, to add to a given line the quality of exclamation, as if it can't stand on its own. I mean, it's a somewhat lazy way to turn a line into something more, which basically points up the fact that the line and context don't do that well enough.

And FifthView!

It's always best to delve into the reason behind a convention than it is to blindly follow it.
 
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glutton

Inkling
Ah, but that's a true exclamation. Halt! Ouch! Damn! By Gorgolol's beard!

The problem is more in using the exclamation point as tool to make something that is not an exclamation into an exclamation; or, to add to a given line the quality of exclamation, as if it can't stand on its own. I mean, it's a somewhat lazy way to turn a line into something more, which basically points up the fact that the line and context don't do that well enough.

Incidentally, looking back at my examples above of GRRM's use of "croak," I see a similar thing. In those cases, the word a) fits the characters speaking, and b) is used specifically to draw out these aspects of the characters. (Maggy is called "Maggy the Frog." The skull death mask would be dry vocally, croaking. Lady Stoneheart has difficulty speaking because of a certain throat condition....) In other words, the use is fitting for each case. Similarly, in using the exclamation point for Halt! or By Gogolol's beard!, the mark is quite fitting, doesn't add so much to the use of those phrases, i.e. doesn't turn them into something they wouldn't normally be, but rather matches them.

This is a good point, I would think that an exclamation point matches well with something like a furious warrior saying, 'Die! Die!' while running at the MC swinging his axe. If instead he says 'Die. Die.' to me it would actually imply a bit of a different feeling, like maybe he is saying it more with grim determination than in a wild rage.

For such a scenario ie. if the warrior is supposed to be a shouting berserker, it would seem like the exclamation point is the more natural ending to his line than just a period.
 
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BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
Fair enough if that is the way you approach your craft, but there is also no need to talk down to people who disagree with a convention. And yes, I have more confidence in what I am doing than many since I know exactly the style I am trying to write in.

Look, maybe you do know what is right for you. Then again, maybe you have no idea what you're talking about. I have no way to judge either way.

All I know is that I tend to hold in a bit of disdain amateurs who completely disregard advice given by professionals.

Questioning in order to understand the advice? Good idea. Putting the advice to the side so as not to be overwhelmed by all the possible advice that you could choose to follow? Fantastic.

It just seems a bit delusional to say, "Hey, I know all these smart, highly paid people with tons of experience say to do this, but I think they're wrong."

EDIT: On the other hand, I think it's just as stupid to blindly follow advice without gaining an understanding of the reason behind it.
 

Russ

Istar
I'm not sold on the blanket advice of eliminating all exclamation points and descriptive speech tags. I understand doing that to avoid false tension, and warning new writers away from sentences like this:



Obviously bollocks. But if you extend that advice to saying no denoted emphasis ever, how do you deal with something like this?



How do we get the reader to assume the guard is shouting in a surprise situation like this? Is that really more efficient or meaningful than the exclamation point? And '"Halt," a guard shouted' just looks odd.

I'm not a big believer in "never ever do this" writing rules. I think a lot of them are "seriously rethink doing this" rules that got overexaggerated.

Actually this example falls right into the Steve Berry approach, as I mentioned in post 26 above:

His belief is that if you cannot tell from the context the volume and excited nature of the utterance (unless it comes as a complete surprise) that you have failed to set the table properly.

However I do have to chuckle at the suggestion that editor's and authors suggestions to minimize the use of exclamation marks is "elitist." The advise doesn't tend to come from literary authors and most editors I know are very down to earth people.

I concur that there are very few real "never" rules, but overuse of exclamation points is a far bigger problem than under use.
 

Russ

Istar
Fair enough if that is the way you approach your craft, but there is also no need to talk down to people who disagree with a convention. And yes, I have more confidence in what I am doing than many since I know exactly the style I am trying to write in. ;)

Would you also say there is no reason to talk down to or doubt the credibility of the people who support the convention?
 

glutton

Inkling
Look, maybe you do know what is right for you. Then again, maybe you have no idea what you're talking about. I have no way to judge either way.

All I know is that I tend to hold in a bit of disdain amateurs who completely disregard advice given by professionals.

Questioning in order to understand the advice? Good idea. Putting the advice to the side so as not to be overwhelmed by all the possible advice that you could choose to follow? Fantastic.

It just seems a bit delusional to say, "Hey, I know all these smart, highly paid people with tons of experience say to do this, but I think they're wrong."

EDIT: On the other hand, I think it's just as stupid to blindly follow advice without gaining an understanding of the reason behind it.

Maybe you should chill a bit since you're getting a bit personal again lol.

Being seemingly offended by someone questioning a convention seems to hover on the border of your edit too.
 

glutton

Inkling
Would you also say there is no reason to talk down to or doubt the credibility of the people who support the convention?

There is no reason to talk down to or doubt the credibility of people who support the convention, but if somebody acts all offended that anyone suggests the convention does not need to be universally followed, they should not be surprised when met with a similar but opposite reaction.

Also you seem to be softening your stance with 'I concur that there are very few real "never" rules, but overuse of exclamation points is a far bigger problem than under use.' the way you initially presented this convention which I had never heard of before seemed to be implying that exclamation points should always be shunned.

If your stance is more that writers should be wary of overusing exclamation points then I would actually agree with that, but there are many times also in dialogue where an exclamation point seems more natural to end a sentence than a period.

If you would rather see the barbarian say 'Die. Die.' instead of 'Die! Die!' while in a foaming rage, that is a point where following the convention would appear 'artificial' and detrimental to conveying the scene naturally.
 
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BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
Maybe you should chill a bit since you're getting a bit personal again lol.

Being seemingly offended by someone questioning a convention seems to hover on the border of your edit too.

I'm not offended by your view; I simply question its validity.
 

glutton

Inkling
I'm not offended by your view; I simply question its validity.

You question the validity of an opinion.

Chill dude.

I would like it if you could actually put forth an argument why for example 'Die! Die!' in the scenario I gave is less natural, more artificial or 'worse' than 'Die. Die.' instead of going 'because these other people said so.' To me the latter seems obviously less natural and to favor it over the former would likely qualify as 'blindly' following a convention.
 
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C

Chessie

Guest
Something I've noticed around these parts lately is that advice given by professionals, that sounds unconventional, is disregarded as wadded paper for the 'nope, I won't do this' pile. I'm more willing to listen to what a professional has to say than someone who hasn't published any books. Especially given that everyone has different writing goals. A hobbyist may never care to publish at all or more than one book. Me? It's how I make my living, so I take advice from professionals seriously.

No one is saying that we must take all the exclamation marks out of our books, or never place thoughts in italics (more on this later). These are just things to be aware of that will only make our writing stronger. I've limited exclamation marks to 1-2 per book, more on the 1 side. It's been hard, but at the same time, I've learned to come up with actions and dialogue that describe a scene's mood better and I don't need to use them. Currently trying to do the same thing about 'said'.

My point is that we shouldn't discount advice in general. If it doesn't fit with our style, if it seems off, take time to marinate on it. I definitely believe that the 'elitist' advice given to writers has strengthened my writing. I love the challenge of needing to find better words, actions, descriptions, in order to give readers more clarity on what's happening.

Now, about the italics, I thought that was a fad for some time. Is it going out of style? Because some crit partners have told me to leave them in, while others don't say anything, and I considered it a writing rule that sucked anyway. :D
 
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