Help creating the Arc....

[Tanihatu]

I Would like to pose a question to the forum, from a beginner to the wise old heads ;-)

Is there any good methods in creating a stories arc?

I have an idea, I have various scenes in my head that are not yet connected, I have character names and I know how I want my story to end. But I'm having REAL trouble in tying it all together to make an outline before I plunge into typing! :-s

I have read various books (twenty master plots, wonderbook, creating science fiction and fantasy etc) and although bits are helpful, I'm still having trouble.

Do I just jump in or are there any helpful tips to create the outline first?

Thank you!

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

It sounds like you're looking for story structure. There are several to choose from. The three act structure is the most basic & it's great for beginners due to its familiarity.

I'd suggest researching act structures. Choose the one you feel most comfortable with, or the one you feel fits the story best.

Do I just jump in or are there any helpful tips to create the outline first? Thank you!

Sooner or later, you'll have to dive in. Right now, you're figuring out the process that works for you. The only way to do that is write, and fail, and write and fail some more. Keep at it long enough and you'll settle into a method that works.

 

[BWFoster78]

Might I suggest that you concentrate first on learning more about writing? Otherwise, you're going to put a lot of effort into the book of your dreams only to find out in a year that most of the effort was wasted. Write a chapter and get feedback on it. Keep working on it until you get your quality level up there before trying to write your entire rough draft.

 

[GeekDavid]

I must strongly disagree with the previous reply. The best way to learn to write is to write. Write the whole rough draft and if it's sub-par, it can be fixed later -- it's not set in stone, after all.

I learned more from writing my two manuscripts than I possibly could have by writing single chapters. A chapter just isn't long enough to learn much. It's like saying you'll learn to swim at Olympic level by wading across the pool.

Writing the whole manuscript teaches things chapters never could... where to break the chapters to keep the reader turning pages, how to develop ideas so that they last the whole book, how to pace the discoveries so they last the whole story without too many dry spells or info dumps... I could go on.

There is simply no substitute for writing the whole manuscript.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Might I suggest that you concentrate first on learning more about writing? Otherwise, you're going to put a lot of effort into the book of your dreams only to find out in a year that most of the effort was wasted. Write a chapter and get feedback on it. Keep working on it until you get your quality level up there before trying to write your entire rough draft.

I agree that learning craft before you get serious about a novel length work, can yield a ton of benefit. However, I'm also a firm believer that no writing effort, performed in earnest, is ever wasted.

You'll learn a lot from just sitting down & writing. Brian is right though, your improvement will likely be accelerated if you seek out people to critique your work. Often, we are blind to our own missteps. Learn to view criticism as a valued tool.

You'll also find the writing at the beginning will pale in comparison to the end. That's how fast your writing can improve if you really want to get better and face criticism with an attitude toward improvement. Grow a thick skin. It'll be a great benefit for your entire career. A final point: When you ask writers how to do something, you'll get a ton of different opinions. That's because writing is a solitary act, unique to each of us. Find what works for you, within that advice. Experiment with methods & ideas. It takes time, but that's the way you develop your own style.

 

[GeekDavid]

You'll also find the writing at the beginning will pale in comparison to the end. That's how fast your writing can improve if you really want to get better and face criticism with an attitude toward improvement. Grow a thick skin. It'll be a great benefit for your entire career.

Definitely grow a thick skin. You'll need it both for the works in progress as well as for the works you finish and release into the unwashed hands of the masses, not all of whom will heap praise upon you for writing The Next Great Fantasy Novel. You're going to get negative reviews, and unless you never read any of your own reviews anywhere and forbid all of your friends from ever mentioning them, you're going to see some of the negative ones. Growing a thick skin will help keep you from being the kind of author who calls those who write negative reviews names that aren't printable on a family forum.

 

[Tanihatu]

Thank you all for your feedback.

I think I will do most of what you have all said. I think I need to get writing and I can change things later. I will look into some of the ways I can structure and see what happens. It will also be useful to get some of my work analysed. I put a paragraph on here and the feedback was really helpful! Where/who else do you suggest are good sources of critique?

I think at this stage I am doing this for fun and at a hobby level. I hope to get a story finished that my daughter can read and say 'my dad wrote that!'

I would love to get something published but I am a long LONG way from that!

 

[GeekDavid]

I think I will do most of what you have all said. I think I need to get writing and I can change things later. I will look into some of the ways I can structure and see what happens. It will also be useful to get some of my work analysed. I put a paragraph on here and the feedback was really helpful! Where/who else do you suggest are good sources of critique?

Find yourself a circle of fellow fantasy fans and ask them if they can be bluntly honest with you about your writing. Tell them the only way you'll get better is if they point out the parts that didn't work, that you can't improve something if you don't know it's wrong.

And remember, thick skin. If they give you honest critique and you don't like it, don't lash out, or they either won't critique for you again, or they'll only tell you what they think you want to hear.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Depending on where you live, you may be able to find local groups. Search for writer's groups in you city. You can also search social sites like Meetup. They have many groups like this available.

Alternatively, people from Mythic Scribes often form crit groups. There is a forum here dedicated toward writing groups.

You can learn as much by giving critiques as you can by getting them. Giving crits train your eye for fundamentals of craft.

 

[GeekDavid]

You can learn as much by giving critiques as you can by getting them. Giving crits train your eye for fundamentals of craft.

That's true too. When I started reviewing for Otherwhere Gazette, I noted that I was looking for different things than I was prior to that. In turn, I think an eye for those things helps me as an author.

 

[Tanihatu]

Not sure if I'm at all good enough or qualified enough to give any sort of critique yet! Very much a complete novice!

Finding some writing groups is a good idea. I also run a creative writing group at the school I work at so may try some stuff on the pupils or the teachers in the English department.

 

[Penpilot]

I always recommend these youtube videos done by Dan Wells. In them he talks about how he breaks down his plots with examples using Harry Potter, Star Wars, and the Matrix. Finding this has helped me a lot in the way I think of things.

Here's the playlist.
Dan Wells on Story Structure, part 1 of 5 - YouTube

 

[Svrtnsse]

Might I suggest that you concentrate first on learning more about writing? Otherwise, you're going to put a lot of effort into the book of your dreams only to find out in a year that most of the effort was wasted.

I think this here is a really important point.

How you go about practicing your writing is up to you, but I do believe that in the long run you will be glad you did. Whether you start out writing sample chapters or short stories or an entire full length novel is up to you - do what works.
What I do recommend however is that you pick another story. Pick something you don't care about, something short, simple and easy that you can finish in your spare time within a reasonable timeframe. That way, since you don't care too much about it, it doesn't matter as much if it isn't any good. Since it's a simple and easy story you don't have to worry too much about plot-holes and intrigue and consistency and you can focus on just writing. Since it's short it won't take all that long and you can get a better grip on the craft and put out a better version of your main story.

That's what I'm doing.
I've learned so much.
I've learned the by spending time writing about my character I've come to care a lot more about the story than I ever thought I would.
I've learned that writing isn't easy and that even the simplest story can be a lot more complicated than you think when you get down to it.
I've learned that it takes a lot longer than I though.

...I've also picked up a thing or to about actual writing, things I had no idea I didn't know. I've encountered issues I didn't think existed. It's tough. Some of the feedback I've received has been rather blunt, but that too is a learning experience.

I'll still get around to creating my big masterpiece sometime, but first I'm going to finish this one simple book I don't really care about - even if it's the last thing I'll ever do!

It's great fun.

 

[Svrtnsse]

Not sure if I'm at all good enough or qualified enough to give any sort of critique yet! Very much a complete novice!

Bullcrap.

Larry Laffer once said "I don't know much about art, but I know what I like."
What this means here is that even if you don't know much about writing you still know if you like something you read or if you don't. It's not about being right or wrong, it's about having an opinion.
If you don't want to comment on someone's writing or give them advice on what they can do to improve it, ask them why they are doing what they do. You can also comment on other things than the actual writing; concepts, ideas, consistency, character behaviour, etc. There's more to writing than just writing.

The main benefit (I think) that you gain from this, is that you get the opportunity to do some serious thinking about words and sentences. You'll get some examples and you get to think about how you would change it around if it was your text. You get to think about what you would do to improve the text. That's a great learning experience (even if in the end your suggestion isn't actually better).

Go for it.

 

[skip.knox]

I share the OP's pain here. It's all very well to talk about three acts or five acts or just acting out, but those theoretical constructs disappear like mirages when I am hip-deep in writing. In getting from Scene 14 to Scene 15 I suddenly find character motivations are wrong. Or I've done something that makes it physically impossible for my characters to take the next stop, or at least logically improbable. Or I've done something that is solid but forces me to undo Scene 8.

When this happens often enough, I start to lose the thread of the story. The novel's arc begins to look more like a death spiral.

Everyone is correct: you have to start writing. The only way to discover these horrifying problems is to write, because at the outline stage everything hangs together pretty well.

I'll add one additional point to what's been said. No writing is wasted *as long as* it is also critiqued. Writing that is just writing and not read by anyone else is a waste. Writing that is read only by friends and family, but never by a cold reader (editor, critique circle, etc), is not quite a waste but is certainly a lost opportunity.

Step one, though, is to write.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

No writing is wasted *as long as* it is also critiqued. Writing that is just writing and not read by anyone else is a waste. Writing that is read only by friends and family, but never by a cold reader (editor, critique circle, etc), is not quite a waste but is certainly a lost opportunity. Step one, though, is to write.

I disagree.

Early on, I wrote plenty of things that never saw eyes other than mine. I'll admit, when I started receiving critique I improved at a faster rate. However, those early scribblings taught many lessons.

First, I learned to experiment. I emulated authors. I tried fanciful ideas. Most failed, but there were definite gains, especially when trying to employ fundamentals of craft, forcing myself to think in "writerly" ways, pushing myself out of comfort zones.That time spent understanding technique was key in getting confident enough to seek and accept critique. I'd say it was also a starting point in my search for voice & style.

Second, and this may be equally important, I learned to finish. It may not be anything I'd ever put out to the masses, but the lessons learned in trying to tie up plots, differentiate characters over 100k+ words, and aptly apply tension while keeping it all clear...this stage was so valuable. The products themselves were miserable failures. The growth I experienced was another matter entirely.

I'm finally at the point where I feel my work is ready to take the next step. I firmly believe, if it were not for those early struggles, I'd be much farther away from achieving my goals.

 

[Tanihatu]

Thank you all again for the input.

I recently found an article (I forget who by) who set out this regime of writing 350 words a day minimum. Think I might give this a go as I will be writing then and towards a target.

I have puzzled all night about structure and story arc and all your help on this has been really helpful. Dare I say I may even have a chain of events coming together! I'm going to watch the above videos now too!

I am aware I seem over enthusiastic but I have to jump on this when I have it. It makes the project easier to pick up every day in the long run if I have a clear outline of where I'm heading

 

[BWFoster78]

However, I'm also a firm believer that no writing effort, performed in earnest, is ever wasted.

If you want to learn to write a novel, you'll have to write a novel at some point. There's no other way to gain that experience.

What I see from a lot of newbies, however, is two problems:

1. They write in a vaccuum, not letting anyone else see their work until after they've spent years on it. To me, a lot of that effort was wasted. Granted every sentence they wrote gained them experience, but it would have been so much more efficient if they had gotten feedback before proceeding.

2. When they do seek feedback, the focus is, "help me make this scene/chapter/whatever better." I think they'd be better served concentrating on, "help me become a better writer." Teach a man to fish...

So, it's not that I don't think they can achieve their goals by writing the entire book first; it's that I think the way I suggested is much more efficient.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

I recently found an article (I forget who by) who set out this regime of writing 350 words a day minimum. Think I might give this a go as I will be writing then and towards a target.

Members of Mythic Scribes know I'm a huge proponent of this approach. It works for me. I set a daily goal. I track daily performance so I have a record of production. That record is great because, at the end of a month, a quarter, a year, I can see how quickly pieces of sustained effort add up. For my writing, slow and steady wins the race. Even if you wrote only one page a day (250-300 words), at the end of a year you'd have 89k-107k words written. That, my friend, is an entire book...or darn close.

An additional point I'll make on daily goals...adjust them frequently. Your life will have busy times and less busy times. In a hectic month, don't be afraid to reduce your daily word count goal. When the schedule eases, ramp it up.

If you want to learn to write a novel, you'll have to write a novel at some point. There's no other way to gain that experience. What I see from a lot of newbies, however, is two problems:

1. They write in a vaccuum, not letting anyone else see their work until after they've spent years on it. To me, a lot of that effort was wasted. Granted every sentence they wrote gained them experience, but it would have been so much more efficient if they had gotten feedback before proceeding.

2. When they do seek feedback, the focus is, "help me make this scene/chapter/whatever better." I think they'd be better served concentrating on, "help me become a better writer." Teach a man to fish... So, it's not that I don't think they can achieve their goals by writing the entire book first; it's that I think the way I suggested is much more efficient.

Brian,
I'm not advocating writing in a vacuum. On the contrary, I believe in the immense value of critique.

However, I'm also a believer in sitting down to learn the fundamentals of craft. Once a writer has a firm grasp on methods & practices (like what passive voice is, for example) they will be better equipped to learn from critique.

You've said before, the years you spent reading about craft fundamentals, & trying to put those methods into practice, were invaluable. I'm merely stating that new writers should do the same. Seek out knowledge, practice, gain a basic understanding of different principles...then seek feedback.

If there's too great a gap between the writer and the person delivering feedback, the impact of critique won't be as powerful, or focused, as it could be.