How much violence is too much?

[Azul-din]

I'm about halfway through the present project and already my MC has killed three of her own people. The thing is, she's an anthropomorphic cat, (think panther) and on her home world swords are considered a coward's weapon. So it's all teeth and claws and gets very personal and messy. I found that the affect of such very personal violence was entirely different from sword or dagger etc, where in a sense the weapon is doing the killing. She's the MC, remember, and not some crazed serial killer. She's a half breed trying to live in her father's world where she hopes to become a writer of Fantasy novels so it's only a matter of time before some human falls prey to her- only in self defense of course. This was not intended as a comedy or farce although there is a kind of dark humor emerging. Like a story conference with her editor in a Japanese restaurant where she inadvertently reveals that the Fantasy novel she's writing is based on a real world.

 

[Finchbearer]

It does highly depend on the context I think. Without reading what you’ve actually written I couldn’t say whether it feels like there is too much violence or not. If every other page there is a blood bath, that can become tedious, but violence in a fantasy setting kind of goes hand in hand much of the time.

Take Sarah j Maas - she is what all the kids are reading nowadays, oh, and me. She has literally written an entire series based on a female assassin. There’s a lot of violence and a lot of killing in her books. But, it works. It sort of gets glazed over by the clever writing, and this is young adult fiction too. Maybe female fantasy characters can get away with more violence because maybe it feels vaguely ridiculous to read about a woman wielding a sword or using magic to get out of sticky situations or to slay enemies…but that’s a societal thing, not exclusively my opinion.

And of course there are books with main characters who are in fact serial killers, so there’s that.

I think as I’ve read your description it does sound somewhat comedic, but as long as it’s not a continuous bloodfest it probably doesn’t read as ‘too much violence’.

 

[pmmg]

I would advise against being a writer of fantasy. The cost benefit just isn't there.

 

[BearBear]

I'd let it play out, it could be a good character arc where she changes her ways or finds a new way to deal with her problems. I don't know the whole story so you need to decide ultimately.

I'd advise being wary of dragons and their advice, they can be grumpy.

 

[Mad Swede]

It was Isaac Aimov who wrote that "violence is the last refuge of the incompetent", and Jerry Pournelle who commented "I agree with it completely - if it's read properly. That is, only the incompetent wait until it's the last resort."

What I mean by quoting these two authors is that the use of violence in stories should be appropriate to the story, the characters and the context. If you're writing a story where the protagonists use violence then there has to be a reason for that violence. That might be a threat of some sort, or it might be part of their character. Either way using violence should have consequences for the protagonists if it is to avoid being seen as gratuitous. As a retired soldier I particularly dislike the use of violence without consequences in stories, which is why I like both JRR Tolkien and CS Lewis descriptions of battles and their aftermath. In both cases there is no attempt to hide the consequences for the protagonists, which is probably because both Tolkien and Lewis saw action on the front line during the First World War and knew what it was like to come home afterwards.

 

[skip.knox]

Azul-din, how about taking a stab at your own question? How much violence do *you* think is too much? Think on books you've read. Did any cross the line for you?

And two additional questions. First, how did you determine or decide that that amount of violence was too much?

Second, how much violence is just enough? Or is acceptable? Again, drawing on your own experience.

FTR and in the spirit of participation, I don't think I've ever decided a book had too much violence in it. I have many times decided that the violence was handled badly and that the sheer act of reading became too much. Plenty of DNF on that basis.

 

[Miles Lacey]

I'm not a retired soldier but I grew up in low socio-economic neighbourhoods where violence - gang, vigilante, police and domestic - was a regular thing. I also read a lot of stuff about the Holocaust and genocide. I read thrillers, horrors and crime fiction. Thus, I have a high threshold for it.

I detest sexual and sadistic violence in fiction and i won't use it in my writing. I also avoid violence that is too close to home, such as domestic and vigilante violence.

Ultimately, every person has their own line in the sand as to how much violence is too much and what sorts of violence is acceptable.

Like the Mad Swede I expect violence to have consequence and for violence to have a rationale for it.

 

[pmmg]

Why has she killed three of her 'own' people, and with claws and teeth, it does seem rather personal.

I dont think I would worry about the serial killer aspect of it. One of the things about MC's is they tend to be the ones the bad things happen to, and more bad things tend to come their way.

The consensus above seems to be the level of violence is not right or wrong, just what the works for the story. You have to give the story what it needs. And if the character is in places where bad things happen and violence is common, then I guess there will have to be violence. Just have it make sense, fit the narrative, and be true to the story and characters.

No artificial shying away from me.

 

[Azul-din]

Azul-din, how about taking a stab at your own question? How much violence do *you* think is too much? Think on books you've read. Did any cross the line for you?

And two additional questions. First, how did you determine or decide that that amount of violence was too much?

Second, how much violence is just enough? Or is acceptable? Again, drawing on your own experience.

FTR and in the spirit of participation, I don't think I've ever decided a book had too much violence in it. I have many times decided that the violence was handled badly and that the sheer act of reading became too much. Plenty of DNF on that basis.

The issue is not the violence per se, but the nature of it. I have generally, in my writing, stayed away from open violence.. Then I did a novel (unpublished) about a werewolf growing up, and his struggles with his dual nature- the wolf in him was like a second persona, in the sense that he was aware of it's thoughts and feelings. But when killing took place, it was the wolf that was in control and the MC rather like a passenger but generally in agreement with its actions. In this new book, the violence is very much part of the MC's nature, and what I found personally disturbing was the way it felt to be using her own teeth and claws much as a large predator would. Now, I recently read a book titled 'The girl with all the gifts' which pictured the usual post apocalyptic world filled with zombies. The titular character is a sort of descendant of the zombies ( called 'The Hungries) in that she is highly intelligent rather than mindless yet has the same uncontrollable ( at first) urge to eat humans. This didn't bother me particularly, but then I didn't write the thing. My point being that it isn't a matter of how the gentle reader might react, but rather how it feels as a writer to have turned over a personal stone you kind of wish you hadn't.

More later

 

[Azul-din]

Why has she killed three of her 'own' people, and with claws and teeth, it does seem rather personal.

I dont think I would worry about the serial killer aspect of it. One of the things about MC's is they tend to be the ones the bad things happen to, and more bad things tend to come their way.

The consensus above seems to be the level of violence is not right or wrong, just what the works for the story. You have to give the story what it needs. And if the character is in places where bad things happen and violence is common, then I guess there will have to be violence. Just have it make sense, fit the narrative, and be true to the story and characters.

No artificial shying away from me.

Her mother, who was dying, made a gesture that was interpreted as naming the MC as queen. She was immediately challenged according to tradition and managed to kill her much larger adversary. Then the brother of that challenger followed her to the human world and she kills him. Then she realizes that the regents she had left behind, so she could come to the human world to become a writer, were determined that she should die so as to leave them in power. So they sent an assassin. He didn't succeed.

 

[Prince of Spires]

Only you can answer how much violence you want to write. That's very different for everyone, and it's probably even different for a single person between writing projects.

One thing I did realize in my own writing, is that killing is sometimes too easy an answer. The reader won't notice or care much in a lot of cases. But as an example, I had a character who needed to steal a horse to escape his pursuers. The horse was watched by two innocent guards. Now, the easy writing would be to simply have the character kill them. After all, they're disposable, unnamed guards, and the reader won't care or even remember them a page later. However, the question is, would the character (or an average person), consider killing to be the easy, obvious answer? I personally think that the answer in most cases is no. Very few people can kill someone in cold blood, just because it was the easiest, most convenient answer. Therefore, I think most characters would look for an alternative to killing, if they can at all avoid it. Of course, in your specific case, this might not apply. But it is something to consider.

Also, I think that searching for a harder solution, which may be more true to human nature and your characters makes your writing stronger. So looking for alternatives to violence can be a good idea.

 

[Azul-din]

I would advise against being a writer of fantasy. The cost benefit just isn't there.

I'm nearly 80- do you think I take the cost benefit seriously? Posthumous success hardly figures in my reason for writing.

 

[Azul-din]

I'd let it play out, it could be a good character arc where she changes her ways or finds a new way to deal with her problems. I don't know the whole story so you need to decide ultimately.

I'd advise being wary of dragons and their advice, they can be grumpy.

The violence is not her problem. Trying to finish her novel while dealing with potential assassins is.

 

[Azul-din]

Only you can answer how much violence you want to write. That's very different for everyone, and it's probably even different for a single person between writing projects.

One thing I did realize in my own writing, is that killing is sometimes too easy an answer. The reader won't notice or care much in a lot of cases. But as an example, I had a character who needed to steal a horse to escape his pursuers. The horse was watched by two innocent guards. Now, the easy writing would be to simply have the character kill them. After all, they're disposable, unnamed guards, and the reader won't care or even remember them a page later. However, the question is, would the character (or an average person), consider killing to be the easy, obvious answer? I personally think that the answer in most cases is no. Very few people can kill someone in cold blood, just because it was the easiest, most convenient answer. Therefore, I think most characters would look for an alternative to killing, if they can at all avoid it. Of course, in your specific case, this might not apply. But it is something to consider.

Also, I think that searching for a harder solution, which may be more true to human nature and your characters makes your writing stronger. So looking for alternatives to violence can be a good idea.

The MC in this story is only half human. Responding to a physical attack is hard wired into her nature. She has a greater problem, relatively speaking, with learning that her home world is not the heroic fantasy she always imagined it to be. En passant, I totally agree with your assessment that the average person finds it traumatic and next to impossible to kill another human being in cold blood. I was not in Vietnam but I've talked to ex~soldiers who were. It ain't like the movies.

 

[pmmg]

I'm nearly 80- do you think I take the cost benefit seriously? Posthumous success hardly figures in my reason for writing.

Several people did not seem to get this...

You wrote:

She's a half breed trying to live in her father's world where she hopes to become a writer of Fantasy novels

It was a comment to her from beyond the forth wall. --or, it was a joke. Nothing about any person living or dead.

Carry on.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

In our current project six teenage boys are dead before the end of the second chapter. But where to draw the line? For me it's when the violence really becomes less about the stakes and the character arcs and more about the squish. Don't get me wrong, no punches pulled here, but I'm also more likely to fade to black on graphic violence than I am on sex. And that's where I draw the line, where the violence no longer serves to forward the story.

 

[Azul-din]

Fourth wall? Sorry I didn't get the reference.. En fin, it was not intended as a joke.

In our current project six teenage boys are dead before the end of the second chapter. But where to draw the line? For me it's when the violence really becomes less about the stakes and the character arcs and more about the squish. Don't get me wrong, no punches pulled here, but I'm also more likely to fade to black on graphic violence than I am on sex. And that's where I draw the line, where the violence no longer serves to forward the story.

Yes, I would tend to agree down the line. My character is fighting for her life, armed with claws and teeth against a similarly armed opponent. I try hard to keep any hint of relish or glorification out of the violence scenes, it's basically a matter of kill or be killed. She really would prefer to be left alone with her writing.

 

[Finchbearer]

it's basically a matter of kill or be killed. She really would prefer to be left alone with her writing.

I know the feeling.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Fourth wall? Sorry I didn't get the reference.. En fin, it was not intended as a joke.

Yes, I would tend to agree down the line. My character is fighting for her life, armed with claws and teeth against a similarly armed opponent. I try hard to keep any hint of relish or glorification out of the violence scenes, it's basically a matter of kill or be killed. She really would prefer to be left alone with her writing.

I want to address the bolded for a moment before I share my example. As a woman with a history of violence, I'm going to encourage you to step back a little and really dig into female representation in Fantasy (I'm assuming genre here. She's a cat.). And I think you'll find that not only are women often treated as the "heart" or "virtue" of the cast, the one who does the emotional heavy lifting, the one who is "an awesome fighter but she hates it" because women who enjoy violence are unlikable and unrelatable, right?

I will tell you, from experience spanning twenty years of a mixed bag of physical abuse, martial arts, and a fierce nature, one thing and please think about letting your character feel this, too - violence is fun. Maybe not sex fun, but it's the other side of the erotic coin. Similar emotional depth and complexity, similar physicality. Just something to consider.

Now to the fun stuff. We don't believe in giving the reader many breaks. We'd rather be described as "grabbing the reader and dragging them from beginning to end." See? Fun! But sometimes it does get to be too much, and we draw the narrative camera back. We're still showing violence, and this is one of the most violent scenes we've written so far. It's also one of my favorites. Chonky, but still fun.

From Ties of Blood and Bone: The Second Book of Binding...

...

Magnus’s hands shook with rage, clenching the head of his cane with a white-knuckled grip.

Bastian hummed cheerfully along to his damn earbuds as he poured the last of the sand, oblivious. Idiot.

Arariel crouched by the support post and crumbled a bit of incinerated rope between his fingers. He snorted with amusement. “Well, this is a complication. So close to the finish line, too.” He stood. “Oh well. It’s been very entertaining working with you, Magnus.”

Magnus snarled. “We’re not done, yet.” He struck Bastian across the back with his cane, eliciting a yelp of pain, and then flung him backward to the ground by his shirt collar. “Where are they?” He threw magic at the complex geometric pattern, fixing it in place and preventing it from being damaged.

Bastian looked to where the two wizard women were—had been—and his eyes widened with panic. “They were just here! I bound them well. I’ll find them for you, I swear it.”

Magnus put his foot on Bastian’s chest. “No. You’ve failed me for the last time.” He looked to Arariel. “My lord, let me call a Legion Commander. We’ll find this girl before your deadline.”

Arariel raised an eyebrow. “You’ll need quite a sacrifice to bring them here and you seem to be a victim short.”

The look Magnus cast on Bastian was devoid of pity. “I see one that should suffice.”

Bastian paled and struggled to get away. “Magnus, no! I’ve done everything you’ve ever asked of me. I’ve been your partner in this. I killed my first Mulcahy when I was twelve! You can’t!”

Magnus ground his heel into Bastian’s sternum, causing a small pain noise. “I have given everything to this geas. I gave my daughter to Arariel. My son betrayed me and will be dead soon enough. I have nothing left. What makes you think I won’t use you?”

Bastian’s eyes filled with tears. “Magnus… Master… please! I love you.”

Magnus turned to Arariel. “My lord, may I present your sacrifice?”

Arariel’s grin was a thing of menace and teeth and laughter. “Sure. Why not?”

Magnus swung his cane. “Goodbye, Bastian.”

Bastian screamed as the steel head of the cane struck his face.

Arariel was a demon of blood and pain, and so while a simple offering of a soul would technically suffice, he gained more power—and more pleasure—from offerings that ended with bloody, agonizing, death. The more violent the death, the more power generated, and Magnus had a particular Legion Commander in mind.

One that required quite a bit of power to summon, indeed.

By the time Bastian was finally dead the Demon Gate fairly hummed with power, and Magnus could again see the blasted hellscape that was the native realm of both demons and angels. He paused for a moment to contemplate what they had done to their own home in their unending war and was grateful that they could not pass so easily to the Mortal Realm. It was enough that the strongest of them chose to come here and use mortal souls as some sort of point system in their conflict. The demons wanted to collect them for their personal power, and angels sought to set them free.

He wondered if sweet, soul reading, angel-eyed Winter Mulcahy knew that. He wondered if she even knew about the damn guardian in Seahaven’s Historical District. Magnus had spent twenty years avoiding the tenacious son of a bitch.

On the other hand, it really didn’t matter. She wouldn’t live to see sunrise. He caught the power of the Gate like reigns and sent out his summons. “Setheus, hear me. Your lord requires the service of you and your demons.”

Now, there's absolutely no doubt as to what exactly is happening here. We know Bastian is murdered, we know how, we know how violently, and we know why. Did we have to see the squishy parts? No. Why? Because that's not where our story was happening.

 

[Mad Swede]

I want to address the bolded for a moment before I share my example. As a woman with a history of violence, I'm going to encourage you to step back a little and really dig into female representation in Fantasy (I'm assuming genre here. She's a cat.). And I think you'll find that not only are women often treated as the "heart" or "virtue" of the cast, the one who does the emotional heavy lifting, the one who is "an awesome fighter but she hates it" because women who enjoy violence are unlikable and unrelatable, right?

I will tell you, from experience spanning twenty years of a mixed bag of physical abuse, martial arts, and a fierce nature, one thing and please think about letting your character feel this, too - violence is fun. Maybe not sex fun, but it's the other side of the erotic coin. Similar emotional depth and complexity, similar physicality. Just something to consider.

I very rarely disagree with you, but this is one case where I will make an exception. Sure, as a youngster I thought it was pretty cool learning about (and being good at) unarmed combat and shooting things. Turned out I was pretty good at that sort of thing, and I was also good at leading in the field. Then I served on a few UN peacekeeping operations and saw the price paid afterwards - and learnt the hard way the price I was to pay. This what I mean when I say that violence must have consequences.

Speaking/writing from bitter personal experience you and others do pay a price for violence, maybe not immediately, but in the end you will pay. You're never the same again. Flashbacks, nightmares, they all come to haunt you. It can and does wreck close personal relationships. It was Dr Hook who released an album called Pleasure and Pain - and they weren't wrong.