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Hybrid Authors: The Best of both worlds

Philip Overby

Staff
Article Team
Those points make sense. I guess I was thinking more along the lines of if I was self-publishing, I would want to help out other self-published authors I liked and not just ones I felt obligated to. I notice a lot of camaraderie between fantasy authors who often tweet each other and give recommendations to check out an interview with so and so or whatever. I think these authors genuinely like each other and their work, so it doesn't come off to me like blatant promotion. That's more along the lines of what I'd be looking for. Not necessarily an official group, but other like-minded authors who I liked and respected, which I already know several here at Mythic Scribes.

I'm curious, are there benefits to going with a small press in any capacity, Michael?
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
There are a lot of places where authors support each other (through advice and encouragement) but not really in the way you mean - as in I'll recommend your book if you recommend mine.

I don't know that sharing a blog or other social media platform with another author would necessarily mean "I'll promote you, you promote me" in a way that should raise skepticism. I would think it could be more about promoting a common banner under which multiple authors could be recognized.
 
I think folks are somewhat overestimating the value of many of these promotions.

Book signings: I've done ONE, ONCE, and it was at a major MTG convention, and thank goodness I was surrounded by literally hundreds of fans of my co-author. (Me? Gack. I was brought in mostly for my much-stronger grasp of grammar and structure.) He signed quite a few books, and I even signed a few. ;)

But mostly, when I go to cons, I see a little bevy of writers sitting at a table looking awfully bored. And that's at cons - where most of the audience IS the target audience. Big names do well, everyone else sits there looking embarrassed and like they'd rather be anywhere else than in that seat. Bookstores are even worse, since almost no one entering the store will be part of your target audience. If you're Stephen King, people drive 200 miles to get their books signed. If you're "average midlist guy", no one does, assuming you get bookstore signings at all (which you might, if YOU organize them).

OK, let's say you pull a Joe Konrath: you go hog wild on book signings. He drive thousands of miles, hit hundreds of bookstores, and he set up pretty much the whole tour. More like a marathon of doom than a tour, really. ;) He was probably his usual outgoing, extroverted self - and he sold thousands of books. On which he earned a pittance. Probably not enough to cover his gas and hotel bills.

Bottom line: if you LIKE book signings, do them. If you don't get a thrill from them, pass. They aren't doing anything for your career.



Twittergangs: Yes, there are "follow Fridays" and "writer Wednesdays" and all sorts of other things. And if you look at the people doing them, almost all their followers are ALSO writers. Now, that's sorta-kinda OK, because after all, writers read too. And if you write fantasy, odds are you read it as well. But it's not your ideal audience, as they're probably too busy promoting their own book on twitter to be paying much attention to yours.

The best, most powerful twitter connections are the personal ones, not the spam. You build fans one reader at a time, through personal connections. (You can do that through booksignings, too, but it's WAY harder and requires an extroverted personality, which many writers lack.) I had someone tweet back that he had heard about Starship enough times, he was going to give it a shot. I replied. He replied. Then he replied a few days later, saying he's hooked and asking when Episode 5 is coming out! I asked him if he wanted me to message him when it was available, and he said yes, thanking me profusely.

THAT'S a connection. That's a reader. You can build that on twitter, on facebook, at cons, or even at the local grocery store. But you don't accomplish it by spamming "buy my book". People already ignore that crap.



What I said about signings counts double for convention panels and readings. If you like them, do them. If you don't, for goodness sake DON'T. I have a writer friend who goes to cons, and she HATES paneling. She panels all the time, because she thinks it's good for her career. I did a little math with her after this last con - not on the time spent at the con, since she really enjoys cons (just hates paneling) - but on the time and energy spent preparing for, angsting over, and stressing afterward about the panels. We came up with roughly 20 hours of wasted working time, which for her is something like 15,000-20,000 words of fiction.

Writing another 20k words is ALWAYS going to be a better investment of your time than paneling. ;) The panels are your FUN thing to do, if you enjoy doing them. And yeah, you might pick up a new reader by paneling at a con. Maybe even two, if you're fortunate! But it's not going to make up for the lost work time you spent. So don't go to cons just to get on panels. And don't panel because you think it will advance your career. Writing more words is the most effective promotion, and most effective advancement you can accomplish. Best bang for your hours. You can supplement that with other things (and should), but nothing will trump writing. I enjoy paneling, so I'll pop into a couple cons a year and either attend or sit on panels. But that's fun time for me - it reinvigorates me. If it ever stops being that way, I'll stop doing it.


OK, I think I've popped enough balloons for one day. Back to writing. ;)
 
On small press, I'm with Michael: there's really no point, EXCEPT in specific situations:

- Your small press is one of the few that gets their books into B&N nationwide.
- Your category of writing is one (say, scholarly work) where having a reputable small press backing the work is still important.
- You get a book accepted by one of the few small presses out there actually promoting their books.

I know one writer who published with a well-known small press. Got good editing, decent cover. Ebook and trade paperback. And in the year and a half since, she's sold less copies than I sold in the first month of anything I've ever published. That's not a "my name" thing, either; I had no name when I started this (still don't, except for a few places online where a few people know me).

Maybe her work needed more polish, or the cover is poor for the genre, or the price ($7! for the ebook) is too high, or something else. But the bottom line is, her publisher should have been able to move at least a FEW more copies over the course of a year+.

And this is a well known name among small presses, remember.

Those results seem not atypical, from what I am hearing. Most writers who do well with small press seem to be doing all the heavy lifting themselves. And if you're going to do all the marketing, you might as well get all the income too, right?

Thus my rule... When a small press asks if I'll submit something (happens at least once per convention I attend), I politely take the card and thank them. Then I vet their work by checking their last 6-12 months of releases on Kindle rankings. If I see results like: 1k, 5k, 8k, 16k, 43k, 60k, then I know that I am seeing strong, consistent marketing from the publisher. If I see results more like: 1k, 30k, 80k, 123k, 350k, 700k, then I know I am seeing writer effort and little if any marketing from the publisher.

I see VERY few cases of the former. And there's no point in signing with the latter.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
Kevin - you're not popping bubbles here, at least with me. I've been trying to say repeatedly that if you want to get anywhere, Facebook and Blogs won't mean anything unless you make the kind of connections or presentations that will get reviews, guest posts, and so on. But I think the question is whether there are any - let's say, reviewer networks - that exist for self-publishers, and do they have legitimacy and success.
 
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There are a lot of little writing clubs, writing lists, writing groups out there. But most of them don't publicly talk about their membership - they certainly don't promote themselves as being members of that group to readers. No real point, as readers don't know them from a hole in the wall. ;)

One group I belong to DOES do some cross pollination; I've hosted a guest blog for one member. Another member with a rather powerful twitter account tweets about all our releases, stuff like that. You see Konrath doing a LOT of that with his little band of writers - their characters show up in each others' books, they co-author things together, they work together in big joint promotions, etc.

There are also some writing collectives out there where all the writers actually publish under one label. Bob Mayer is doing something like this, although he owns the business. In some cases, there is some sort of joint ownership or mass partnership in place, although that seems like a greater legal risk. It's both a way to collectively promote each others work AND a hedge against fears that someday KDP could go away - but small presses will never lose the means to distribute their work.
 

Philip Overby

Staff
Article Team
Interesting points about small presses. I'll have to keep your method of vetting them in mind later.

Yeah, I don't really feel like any bubbles are being popped for me either. I'm glad to hear what works and what doesn't from both Kevin and Michael as you guys have "been in the trenches" so to speak. I consider this having a moment under the learning tree. :)

Thank you for answering all my questions, also. They've been really helpful.

I've always been under the impression that blogs and Facebook aren't enough to promote a work. But I do think networking can open a lot of doors. Just visiting websites where writers and fantasy readers hang out for instance. I think SFFWorld, some writers will sometimes come and discuss their books with the members there. Making yourself accessible to readers I always think is a pretty good idea.

I also don't want to be a spamming "buy my book" kind of author. I always like when people do contests or other interesting promotional techniques other than just posting a link. If it's a review on a blog or something, I'm more likely to give it a look and possibly buy it.

One more question: what has ultimately worked for you when promoting your books from each route, self-publishing, small press, and traditional?
 
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This is the first I've read anyone say that conventions aren't helpful. They seem like a huge expense if they're just for fun. I'd rather go to the convention and not sit on a panel if that was the case.
 
I'm curious, are there benefits to going with a small press in any capacity, Michael?

Sure, it all depends on the goals of the author. There are some that have zero interest in self-publishing - none...period. For those, if they were turned down from all the big-six then small is a way to go.

Also there are some that like small presses better because they are more "co-operative" and allow the author to participate more. They also often offer a high royalty than the big-six (although smaller than self).

In general, most small presses don't "move a lot of books" but that isn't necessarily the goal of every writer. for some they "feel like a real writer" only if someone else signs them. As with all paths there are pros and cons to each...you just have to find what aligns best to our wants. Also, keep in mind there are small presses that do "move a lot of books" so, it's not like it is impossible to find one - If that is a priority for you then check their Amazon ratings of small presses you are interested in.
 
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This is the first I've read anyone say that conventions aren't helpful. They seem like a huge expense if they're just for fun. I'd rather go to the convention and not sit on a panel if that was the case.

Conventions can be helpful. I went to Arisia a couple of months ago. I was borrowed into a panel that I wasn't scheduled to be on, and ran an impromptu "panel" when the "Self Publishing 201" session was cancelled and people (including me) didn't know and showed up anyway, but otherwise didn't do any speaking. I was propositioned by two small presses, had great chats with members of a local writing group, renewed contacts with a number of folks involved in the convention-running part of fandom, went to a few panels that were great, chatted with bunches of writers, and overall had a good time.

I also watched writers who'd signed up for book signings sit there at a table while the rest of the convention walked past them without stopping. It had to be hugely disheartening. The panels are not a lot better - every writer putting their books out on the tables in front of them, and everyone in the audience forgetting them before they even exit the room (some exceptions; if you're a GOOD public speaker, you can make enough connection in an hour panel to be remembered, but you need to be good). Meanwhile, I gave away several copies of my book and a whole bunch of little card adverts for Starship. I suspect I got more sales from that than anyone got from booksignings or panels.

Your best case from paneling at most conventions is something like 10-20 people in a room, and maybe 2-6 panels per con. So you're spending time traveling to the con and preparing, time speaking; money on the convention, travel, and hotel; to reach 20-120 listeners, a couple of whom *might* buy one of your books. (There are again exceptions: Mike Stackpole draws crowds of 100+ to his panels at Dragoncon, but that's both a huge con AND he's a decently big name who's been working that con for years now.)

Paneling pretty much never pays for itself; if that's the only reason you're attending a convention, stay home. ;) For me, it's the networking, listening to others, and chatting about our profession with people at a variety of levels that makes conventions fun. Panels are fun for me, too, but that's because I'm such a quiet, shy person who has trouble speaking his mind. ;)
 

Graylorne

Archmage
Well, at least you all have a scala of choises.

Over here in NL there are two major publishers who also run a fantasy section, and two small presses who have f&sf as ther main line.

The first two you won't get in, unless you're from US/UK or one of the big German writers. Or very lucky. There are a few Dutch writers who made it, but they're just that: few.
The two small press are easier, but by no means automatic. They're not vanity.

In both cases it won't make much difference to your sales, those are small. For most of us to earn $500 a year on one book would be a considerable succes.

Ebooks won't be the cash flow it is elsewhere, because there's 19% VAT on them, against 6% for books.

Self-publishing is not very easy, NL has a fixed book price for all Dutch publications, and there isn't an affordable infrastructure to get your books in any bookstore.

I would bless the day Amazon came to NL, but that high VAT tariff isn't really attractive to them, I think.

So going international is an option if you're willing to invest. That's what I am doing and there are moments it's a pretty nervy business. For the rest it's a challenge.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
Ebooks won't be the cash flow it is elsewhere, because there's 19% VAT on them, against 6% for books.

Self-publishing is not very easy, NL has a fixed book price for all Dutch publications, and there isn't an affordable infrastructure to get your books in any bookstore.

Just, wow.
 
Seen that, too. I understand it. But it still feels odd, on multiple levels. When I started writing, back in the 80s, I could never have imagined I'd live in a time when the main reason to sign with a small press would be vanity.

I don't begrudge any author any goal. Konrath is all about "maximizing money" - that's fine. Other's want to be signed - that's okay with me to. You are right though, with the income potential of self - there is something to be said that signing with a publisher is in someways a sign of appealing to an author's vanity.
 

Philip Overby

Staff
Article Team
For me, I'm not exactly sure what my goal is in writing as of yet. It's exciting to think about and good to get different perspectives from people who have been there. I guess my biggest goal isn't so much making a lot of money, but being read. My biggest goal was always to go into a book store and point and say, "There's my book." I know that dream may never become a reality, due to certain elements of how things work now, but I'd like to imagine it still can.

So I guess for me, wide exposure is my biggest goal right now. But I'm new to all this and my perspective may always change.

I've got one foot forward now at least after finishing my first first draft. I know I still have a long way to go, but it's nice to think about all the possibilities that are available nowadays that maybe weren't available in recent years.
 
I don't begrudge any author any goal. Konrath is all about "maximizing money" - that's fine. Other's want to be signed - that's okay with me to. You are right though, with the income potential of self - there is something to be said that signing with a publisher is in someways a sign of appealing to an author's vanity.

Not every publisher. I mean, Amanda Hocking flat out said on her blog that she expected to LOSE money on the $500k per book S&S was offering her. She did it to help promote her career, and going into it in that manner, it was a smart thing to do.

If I was offered a publishing deal for something like $40k or more tomorrow, I'd probably sign. I think I'd give them full copyright before I gave them a non-compete, mind you... But I'd try to wangle something, because that sort of money would let me drop to half time on the day job for a year, which would increase my writing time by a significant margin. It's not about vanity, if you have good business motivations behind the deal.

Likewise, Michael, you've said you think the Orbit deal was really good for your career - I'm sure the added exposure has helped you gain more readers, and probably made it easier to promote your work in certain venues as well.

It's all about the motivation. If you have good, career-building reasons for doing what you're doing (and they pass the wishful thinking test!) then you're on the right track. Even if things don't turn out the way you planned, you're at least working in the right mindset.
 
So I guess for me, wide exposure is my biggest goal right now. But I'm new to all this and my perspective may always change.

Well achieving that goal is certainly easier now. Lower priced book, or even free books have a readership that you wouldn't have been able to reach a few years ago - so if the money aspect isn't important then there are opportunities to get in front of a large number of people.
 
Not every publisher. I mean, Amanda Hocking flat out said on her blog that she expected to LOSE money on the $500k per book S&S was offering her. She did it to help promote her career, and going into it in that manner, it was a smart thing to do.

I did as well...expect to loose money that is. I figured about $200K...but I got much better foreign translation sales than I probably could have gotten with 100% self and so now I think I ended up making more...but who knows without playing out both scenarios. My reasons for choosing traditional are right in alignment with Amanda's.

If I was offered a publishing deal for something like $40k or more tomorrow, I'd probably sign. I think I'd give them full copyright before I gave them a non-compete, mind you... But I'd try to wangle something, because that sort of money would let me drop to half time on the day job for a year, which would increase my writing time by a significant margin. It's not about vanity, if you have good business motivations behind the deal.

As long as you watch the language in the contract, and make sure other works are protected, there's no reason not to turn over a title (or two) through traditional. It doesn't have to be all or nothing...the hybrid approach is indeed the most flexible.


Likewise, Michael, you've said you think the Orbit deal was really good for your career - I'm sure the added exposure has helped you gain more readers, and probably made it easier to promote your work in certain venues as well.

Without question. I saw my "increase in readers" tripple (by watching goodreads sheliving of my books). And once traditional people don't look down your nose when you stop into a forum and say hi. They are quite excited by the prospect...a much nicer welcome that encourages it to occur more often.

It's all about the motivation. If you have good, career-building reasons for doing what you're doing (and they pass the wishful thinking test!) then you're on the right track. Even if things don't turn out the way you planned, you're at least working in the right mindset.

Agreed.
 
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