I Hate Strong Female Characters

[Philip Overby]

Skyler does have some moments of weakness, or even surrender, at times. But so do Jesse and Walter. Pretty much all the characters are weak at one point or another on the show. That's what makes the moments where they're strong all the much more satisfying. I could see the hypocritical comments a bit more. But again, almost everyone on the show are hypocrites in one way or another. One point people like to make about the show is that almost every character has flaws and are morally ambiguous in some ways. Much like real people. I don't see Sklyer as a character warranting all this hatred. I especially don't understand people hating the actress for playing the character. That's a little overboard.

 

[Philip Overby]

On that note, here's an article you might enjoy about Mako Mori inspiring a new benchmark for female characters in that dreaded "one girl in a team of five boys" situation. I have seen a small amount of Mako-bashing on the Internet and a huge amount of Mako-love and Mako-defense, which warms my heart because I thought she was just about the raddest thing in Pacific Rim, and there was some backlash afterward saying she wasn't "strong enough," which is just dumb.

I liked Mako as a character, but I didn't really read too much into her portrayal. Her character arc was pretty basic really. Which I appreciated because I guess I was expecting it to be more convoluted. One thing I did note:

Mild SPOILER:

Spoiler: Character arc

Mako doesn't have this romantic connection with the lead character (can't remember his name). I was actually quite surprised to see that they didn't kiss at the end. I guess I've been conditioned for that. It actually made me happy to not see them going that predictable route.

 

[saellys]

I liked Mako as a character, but I didn't really read too much into her portrayal. Her character arc was pretty basic really. Which I appreciated because I guess I was expecting it to be more convoluted. One thing I did note:

Mild SPOILER:

Spoiler: Character arc

Mako doesn't have this romantic connection with the lead character (can't remember his name). I was actually quite surprised to see that they didn't kiss at the end. I guess I've been conditioned for that. It actually made me happy to not see them going that predictable route.

Mako has a classic hero's journey--as basic as it gets. The fact that they gave that arc to a Japanese woman instead of, say, the white American male protagonist (whose character development all happens in the first ten minutes of the film, no less!), is pretty great, and depressingly groundbreaking for a summer blockbuster action movie. I totally agree about the spoilers part.

 

[Jabrosky]

I thought Mako was the strongest character in Pacific Rim, or at least the best developed. Certainly more than the white guy who was ostensibly the protagonist. I don't know if I agree about the lack of romance though, as I did get the impression that at least Mako found the white guy attractive (and besides, there is the old white male/Asian female cliche).

 

[saellys]

I thought Mako was the strongest character in Pacific Rim, or at least the best developed. Certainly more than the white guy who was ostensibly the protagonist.

The first time I saw the movie, I had trouble telling him and the Australian kid apart. The second time I saw the movie, I still had trouble telling him and the Australian kid apart.

I don't know if I agree about the lack of romance though, as I did get the impression that at least Mako found the white guy attractive (and besides, there is the old white male/Asian female cliche).

I thought they subverted that old cliché in some very interesting ways. No romance resolution, for starters, and Mako did not sacrifice herself to save him. I have also seen analysis that says that when Mako stares at Raleigh through the peephole in her door, she's looking at his scars (in envy), not his chiseled pecs (in lust). It's open for debate, I guess.

 

[wordwalker]

I saw the Mako Mori piece too; for female characters, it's the ultimate quality vs quantity debate. (Hmm, could Mako become just the latest excuse for limiting stories to one woman? Unlikely, but Hollywood finds the path of least resistance in the oddest places.)

As for Skyler, it's showing up more and more on cable TV, because that's become Antihero Central: a woman is in the MC's life to be less than impressed with all the "hard, cool choices" he makes, and fans call her a monstrosity.

Okay, so the writers need a voice of reason. But it's always a woman (old issues from the years our mothers were showing us our limits?) and the MC's girlfriend-plus to keep the stakes high. So the battered risk-taker we're obviously tuning in to follow has someone right in his bed, saying the show's whole world-view is wrong, when we know in the larger sense it is. Yeah, that's a thankless spot… and she dares to be a woman too?

It's the writing path of least resistance, but some of the "road of good intentions" rules apply.

 

[saellys]

I saw the Mako Mori piece too; for female characters, it's the ultimate quality vs quantity debate. (Hmm, could Mako become just the latest excuse for limiting stories to one woman? Unlikely, but Hollywood finds the path of least resistance in the oddest places.)

True that. I wish we could have nice things. I wish Mako would have said a sentence or two to Sasha Kaidanovsky, or that the Wei triplets would have been women the way Travis Beacham originally wrote them, or Newt or Hermann or Tendo or Chuck or any of a dozen other minor characters with speaking lines would have been genderswapped. But even though Beacham and del Toro set out with the intent to subvert tropes, they still defaulted to certain things.

The inverse of Pacific Rim, as far as recent movies go, was Snow White and the Huntsman. I wouldn't say it quite approached a fifty-fifty split in character gender, but it made an effort, and it was a fantasy adventure film where all the ladies were competently written and had conversations with each other about things other than men. It passed Mori and Bechdel. Unfortunately, it was also not a good movie, and didn't turn a profit on domestic screens, so I'm afraid studios and writers are likely to say, "We built it, but no one came!"

 

[Zero Angel]

Thanks for the articles! I found them interesting. To the "I Hate Strong Female Characters", I agreed to all of the things that the writer wanted to see, but I also enjoy physically strong female characters (especially if there is more to them than just a warrior).

Speaking of Shrek, one thing I was appalled by in the beginning of the series was that the princess turned into an ogre. I'm not saying that Shrek should have turned into a human, I'm saying the fact that they had to be the same race for the conclusion of the film made me go ()

 

[rhd]

Thanks for the articles! I found them interesting. To the "I Hate Strong Female Characters", I agreed to all of the things that the writer wanted to see, but I also enjoy physically strong female characters (especially if there is more to them than just a warrior).

Speaking of Shrek, one thing I was appalled by in the beginning of the series was that the princess turned into an ogre. I'm not saying that Shrek should have turned into a human, I'm saying the fact that they had to be the same race for the conclusion of the film made me go ()

I wrote a feminist review of Shrek and the significance of the ogre-ism (now I wish that were a word). I found it to be a very feminist film. PM me if you want to read it.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Thanks for the articles! I found them interesting. To the "I Hate Strong Female Characters", I agreed to all of the things that the writer wanted to see, but I also enjoy physically strong female characters (especially if there is more to them than just a warrior).

Speaking of Shrek, one thing I was appalled by in the beginning of the series was that the princess turned into an ogre. I'm not saying that Shrek should have turned into a human, I'm saying the fact that they had to be the same race for the conclusion of the film made me go ()

I don't think they were trying to say they had to be the same race. I think they were trying to say that she did not have to be beautiful to be loved.

 

[wordwalker]

Clever inversion of Beauty and the Beast, or copping out on interracial relationships? Political hot po-tay-to/ po-tah-to.

People see it different ways.

 

[wordwalker]

Good article...but I can't understand why do you hate strong women?... any personal cause.....:sluggish:

Um, you realize what she hates is the belief that females have to be strong (and often not much else) to get a place in a story?

 

[A. E. Lowan]

Personally, I don't hate the strong female character (hate is a rather strong term), but I do think it's limiting and at this point bordering on stereotyped and cliché. I think that too many writers and readers spend so much time worrying about characters' genders and their portrayals of those genders that they forget to remember that they are supposed to be people first and foremost.

 

[saellys]

Good article...but I can't understand why do you hate strong women?... any personal cause.....:sluggish:

That was the title of the article. And the article was about how "strong female characters" are seen as somehow deficient if they display any variety of weakness, while male characters are conventionally expected to have all kinds of flaws.

Somewhat on-topic, that's another reason I loved Pacific Rim. Basically all the male characters had varying degrees of weakness, be it physical or emotional or interpersonal (with the weakest in terms of power in his own story being Alanis-ironically named Hercules), which meant Mako did not stick out, nor was her weakness connected to her gender. It was an equal-opportunity thing.

 

[Nihal]

I've read so many positive comments about Pacific Rim here at MS that I'm feeling impelled to watch it now.

 

[Philip Overby]

I thought Pacific Rim was really well done myself. I didn't so much think about the characters as much as I enjoyed watching robots punch the crap out of giant beetle-looking things. However, I did notice that Mako stood out amongst the cast. I kept feeling like this was Raleigh's movie, but the more I watched it, Mako shares the spot light.

I don't go into popcorn movies expecting to analyze it, so I find it interesting so many people are getting all these multi-layered meanings from things. That's good though. That's what will make this movie stand head and shoulders above other big budget smash fests. It actually has some substance if you stop to look at it.

And cheap plug: I have a review on my blog.

 

[Daenelia]

I skimmed it, and I think it isnt that it is about not liking a certain type of female characters, but rather the interpretation of a certain female character type. But the same can be said for any character type, regardless of gender. Bit of an open door to me.

Why wouldnt the (dull) strong woman be as valid as the dull strong man? Or the creepy smarmy seducer and the smouldering temptress? Bit easy to pick on one type, on the pretense of ... what, exactly?

The worst thing you could do is second guess your female character and re-write her to give her flaws and weaknesses, if you do not do the same for your male characters.

 

[Zero Angel]

I don't think they were trying to say they had to be the same race. I think they were trying to say that she did not have to be beautiful to be loved.

Yes, I'm fine with that message and agree with it. But going into the movie the first time I thought it was about an ogre rescuing a beautiful princess, then found out that she was "cursed" with ogre-ness, then found her choosing to be an ogre not as an acceptance of herself, but so there wouldn't be any problem with Shrek and her getting together. Nowadays I don't have a problem with the franchise at all. I just remember being floored the first time I watched it.

Here's a relevant article examining Shrek: www.btchflcks.com/2011/11/animated-childrens-films-onions-have.html, done by Mythic Scribes member rhd.

 

[Steerpike]

With Shrek, it's not exactly differences "races" in the send of human races, though, is it? It's more like separate species before the transformation (ogre v. human).

 

[Lord Ben]

I have no problems with a strong heroine but I feel like I'm somehow a sexist caveman if I have a beautiful spoiled princess who enjoys the color pink and needs to be rescued inside of a story.

But it only works one way. You never see a movie open up with a "I'll show you how badass the MC is" scene where he chops up a group of nameless female bandits with his blade.