intolerance of intolerance. Is it going anywhere and where will it lead us.

[Steerpike]

@Kit I think I agree more or less where the line should be drawn. I don't hate anyone that I know, regardless of political persuasion. I might disagree quite seriously with their viewpoint, but as far as I'm concerned they are entitled to it. They are not entitled to compel my by law to adopt their view, but if they want to try to persuade me with argument, then fine.

But really, my point is just from my own personal experience. I have a lot of liberal and conservative friends - Dems, GOPers, Socialists, Libertarians, and so on. I also have a lot of acquaintances and coworkers in those general categories. If I were to think of the people who are the most downright hateful and nasty in their rhetoric, of the people I know, they are almost all left-wingers. None of my close friends are that way, because I won't be close friends with anyone who behaves like that.

Of the two most intelligent, educated, and kind people I know (both of whom are Ph.Ds and would do anything for a stranger on the streets), one is well to the right of the most conservative politician or personalities out there, and the other is a self-described socialist. Given that, I can reject out of hand any characterization of either side as being ignorant, stupid, idiotic, moronic, dim, or whatever other ad hom people want to throw out there. I know better. The fact that there are many intelligent, reasonable people across the political spectrum tells me reasonable people can differ on the issues that occupy our political discourse. It's the loud and belligerent people on both sides, who can't accept the possibility of rational, intelligent thought on the other, that you have to watch for, in my view.

 

[Elder the Dwarf]

Can I disagree with all of you? At least in the last couple posts at any rate. (Hard for me to ever disagree with Sidekick up there ). Why label conservatives and liberals differently? Bigots are bigots are bigots, right? And Jabroski, there are plenty on the liberal side of the fence. It has gotten to the point where it just sounds like some bs outdated propaganda to say that all bigots are conservative. It is a little bit ridiculous. (S***, my location says Georgia, doesn't it? I must be ultra-conservative.) And there are certainly some on the conservative side. However, disliking someone because of their political beliefs is the one of the most juvenile things you could do. For that matter, I'm not a fan of aligning yourself with a party, but I'll avoid that conversation so my head stays away from the chopping block.

EDIT: By last couple posts, I really meant those before Kit- took me awhile to say that stuff.

...and, after Steerpike's last post, I think I'm down to just disagreeing with the other two.

 

[Steerpike]

@Elder - yes, I think that is it exactly. Bigots and intolerant people are on both sides. They're the same on both sides. And, really, both sides tend to excuse it among those they agree with. I agree entirely that disliking someone solely based on differing political views is generally juvenile, and it seems to me that is often stems from an insecurity of belief that won't tolerate any challenge or exchange of different ideas. Many people stay well away from political view points that differ from their own. They'll associate with like-minded people, refrain from reading or listening to viewpoints from people who think differently. It is all an echo chamber, and in the end that's not a good way to develop one's own views.

I'm talking about reasonable people on both sides, of course. You have groups like Westboro, or groups like ELF, where I think it is reasonable to dislike them and their tactics. But really, our political system is plagued by excuse-making for whatever group we like. One hasn't to look very far, for example, to see corruption rife among some members of both political parties in the U.S., and yet if you are a Democrat chances are you'll excuse it among Democrats, and likewise if you are a Republican, and then maintain in your own mind the viewpoint that somehow your chosen group in Washington is better than the other. It is mind-boggling, really. We can't deal with individuals anymore. Like I said above, we just deal in caricatures, because that's simple.

EDIT: GA is a beautiful State, by the way. I have family there and lived there until 4th grade, and we headed west

 

[Elder the Dwarf]

Agreed.

EDIT: GA is a beautiful State, by the way. I have family there and lived there until 4th grade, and we headed west

Thanks, I like it here for the most part. Gets a bit boring every once in a while, though. What part did you live in?

 

[Steerpike]

NE Georgia. Do you know where Cornelia is?

 

[Ophiucha]

I don't disagree that there are bigots and hateful people on the left. Lord knows I know a few. Hell, my husband can use a kick in the shin at dinner parties from time to time. I know they exist, but... lord, this is going to derail us dreadfully, but in for a penny, in for a pound...

I have conservative friends. People who I have shared interests with outside of politics. We both like a certain show, or a certain game. They are very nice people, all in all. I've had many a good D&D session with them. But, no matter how kind, I simply can't see how you can be a conservative and not have some hateful beliefs, even if they are not rooted in any personal hatred. What are the conservative policies?

Pro-life, which is anti-woman. Anti-immigration, which is anti-Latin@. Anti-affirmative action, which is anti-all minority races, though particularly blacks. Pro-death penalty, which is literally a POV you can only have if you are capable of hating someone. Anti-gay marriage, pretty obviously anti-gay. Against pretty much everything that would decrease the boundaries between the rich and the poor, be that in health care, education, or way of life - anti-black, in particular. The simple fact is that most rich people are white and there are a lot more poor black and Latin@ families than there are white ones (and the white ones often live in different neighbourhoods than the minority ones). Pro-guns, another policy I can't imagine supporting without hatred in your heart. Also, has a direct effect on crime in Mexico. Same with anti-drug policies. Their policies on homeland security - anti-Muslim/Arab. Pro-war on terror, mostly rooted in greed and misconceptions, but lord know it's caused a mean streak in the anti-Muslim/Arab department, as well.

Honestly, the only conservative policy that isn't bigoted or easily tied to race is their stance on global warming. That doesn't mean you are hateful, or even necessarily aware of the hatefulness behind the policies you support. Some of them are more institutionalized than personal. But if you vote conservative, you are still voting for hateful, bigoted policies. Invariably. And frankly staying quiet about it doesn't make you in much better than the fringe parts of the demographic who make their views known. What few groups of liberal nuts we have are well and truly nuts. Eco-terrorists and PETA, mainly. They are leftist, but they aren't preaching the actual policies our elected officials are voting in. Even the sweetest conservatives, however, are voting to ban gay marriage and profile Muslims in every airport every time they vote to lower taxes or whatever it is they vote conservative for.

 

[Steerpike]

Pro-life, which is anti-woman. Anti-immigration, which is anti-Latin@. Anti-affirmative action, which is anti-all minority races, though particularly blacks. Pro-death penalty, which is literally a POV you can only have if you are capable of hating someone. Anti-gay marriage, pretty obviously anti-gay. Against pretty much everything that would decrease the boundaries between the rich and the poor, be that in health care, education, or way of life - anti-black, in particular. The simple fact is that most rich people are white and there are a lot more poor black and Latin@ families than there are white ones (and the white ones often live in different neighbourhoods than the minority ones). Pro-guns, another policy I can't imagine supporting without hatred in your heart. Also, has a direct effect on crime in Mexico. Same with anti-drug policies. Their policies on homeland security - anti-Muslim/Arab. Pro-war on terror, mostly rooted in greed and misconceptions, but lord know it's caused a mean streak in the anti-Muslim/Arab department, as well.

Well, without getting even further afield, unless we really want to, I can't say I agree with anything you've written here. These are all caricatures. They're convenient ways of framing the issues to set up a moral high ground (and a few of them are patently ridiculous, in my view). Conservatives, of course, do the exact same thing in the opposite direction. The fact that you actually believe what you've written here really underscores in my mind how people become so fixed in their own view of the world that they can't even conceive of opposing rational viewpoints and have to throw these characterizations out there. As someone who is pro-choice, pro gay marriage, anti-capital punishment, and on the liberal side of every issue you posted here (except gun rights), all I can say is this post makes me sad.

 

[Steerpike]

I should note, by the way, that I know women who are pro-life, gay people who don't support gay marriage, blacks and other minorities who don't support affirmative action, mexicans who favor a border fence, and so on.

Of course, the easy (and dismissive) answer is that they're somehow self-hating, or deluded, or (insert ad hom here), but the truth is much more complicated than that. The truth is that reasonable people who aren't hateful can differ on these issues. The people who can't see that tend to be more on the hateful side of things because they've successfully dehumanized those with opposing views in their own mind, like you've done in your own post. As writers, I find it particularly troubling that we can't mentally process these views as they really exist, and are capable of seeing them only in terms of hate.

 

[Ophiucha]

I don't doubt that they are in favour of these things for unrelated reasons. Few people are voting against abortion because they hate women - they're doing it for the moral high ground of pro-fetus. But the fact that the policy is, objectively, anti-woman, is what matters. Nearly all conservative policies are rooted in sexism, homophobia, and racism, and regardless of why you vote for them, you are still voting for them. Further, some of these are blatantly racist or homophobic. If you vote for a conservative politician, even if you are gay yourself, you're voting against gay marriage. And I truly couldn't think of a reason unrelated to racism to be against Affirmative Action.

 

[Elder the Dwarf]

I don't doubt that they are in favour of these things for unrelated reasons. Few people are voting against abortion because they hate women - they're doing it for the moral high ground of pro-fetus. But the fact that the policy is, objectively, anti-woman, is what matters. Nearly all conservative policies are rooted in sexism, homophobia, and racism, and regardless of why you vote for them, you are still voting for them. Further, some of these are blatantly racist or homophobic. If you vote for a conservative politician, even if you are gay yourself, you're voting against gay marriage. And I truly couldn't think of a reason unrelated to racism to be against Affirmative Action.

This is entirely opinion based. Affirmative Action? That's the easiest thing in the world for me to think of reasons to be against. And none of them are racist. People that I know who are against affirmative action believe that every single job should be given to the person that is most capable to do that job. A promotion should be given to the person who has worked the hardest or has the most skill at that job. Affirmative action, however, states that this job should be given to a person based on skin tone rather than skill. Which one is racist? For the record, I'm not voting against any of this stuff, but youre argument is not in any way grounded in facts.

 

[Steerpike]

So black people who oppose affirmative action are self-hating racists against their own kind, I suppose? That's convenient, but on these sorts of issues convenient answers are rarely the right ones.

The fact that your own posts here are inherently hateful seems to be lost somehow. It is just this sort of thinking on either side that is at the root of bigotry, in my view. Except for being on the opposite side of the issues, you don't sound much different than a truly bigoted right-winger. Is that supposed to be an enlightened way of looking at the world, simply because you're on the left-wing side of the various issues? I'm sure that's not the intent behind it, but if your argument is the right one, then the intent doesn't matter.

And all of these left-wing groups push social policy just like the right-wing groups do, by the way. The trick is to find the right balance so that the reasonable people on either side aren't being dictated to, under the law, by the fanatics on the other side.

Anyway, I'll simply say that this is precisely the sort of thing that is at the root of the problem in our political system in the US. It might be different in Canada, I don't know. Being polarized to the point that you can't even think of the human beings on the other side of issues in terms other than those you've expressed is really foreign to me.

 

[Ophiucha]

Misconceptions about affirmative action could take another page of this thread entirely, so I'm just letting that one drop.

I'll defer to my point in my first post: some forms of hatred are worse than others. I can't look at a society that still perpetuates homophobia, transphobia, sexism, ableism, and racism and sit back quietly and talk politely about the issues. If you honestly think that it's just as bad to be bigoted against homophobes as it is to be homophobic, then more power to you.

 

[Justme]

I'm beginning to really dislike the term hatred. It seems to be the default term thrown out by those who can't justify their ideology. I equally grow increasingly weary of the use of phobias to belittle those who oppose the agendas of one side or the other. This is a great example of intolerance, sense it is used against the person and not the issue. To me it is a sign of weakness. It merely tries to shove other peoples arguements under the rug, instead of dealing with them. The "Your views are invade because you're a hater" stance is an ad hominem attack and pretty much a waste of everyone's time.

 

[Kit]

Pro-guns, another policy I can't imagine supporting without hatred in your heart. .

I'm pretty liberal, but this is one of the points where I always find myself sitting in a circle of glares when it comes up in a group of liberal friends. I am a pro-gun liberal! (Do I get a cool t-shirt for that?)

Violent criminals are pro-gun because- well. Do I even need to expound?

Those of us who are *not* violent criminals and are pro-gun just want to know that we can protect ourselves and our families when the bad guys with the guns show up.

Gun laws are never going to get guns out of the hands of the criminals. Criminals do not follow laws. That's what makes them criminals. The only thing that gun laws do is take guns out of the hands of the good guys, so that when the gun-toting law-ignoring criminals show up, we can't do anything but lie down and die for them like a bunch of sheep.

If I want a gun so that I can shoot some criminal who is trying to rape me or kill my kid, I don't agree that that's about hate per se. It's just about survival. It can be viewed in a totally practical and unemotional way.


Hey, look at us. Four pages, and we're still being pretty civil with this discussion. :Cool:

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

Pro-life, which is anti-woman

Does this make my wife anti-woman?

Spoiler: how pro-lifers really think, if you're curious

If you're interested in hearing the mindset of a pro-life couple, I can share a story about why my wife and I are very strongly opposed to abortion. It has to do with a doctor's recommendation for our first born, which was to abort her because she would be deformed, dwarfed and retarded. Being morally opposed to abortion, we ignored this advice and never went to that doctor again. Our daughter is highly intelligent, and she's the tallest in her preschool class.

Regretfully, friends of ours decided to abort their twins (who had the same due date as our first born) because there was a 10-15% chance that one or both would die during the pregnancy. Logically, it would have been better to do nothing. To do nothing would have meant a 15% chance of a death or two. To abort made it a 100% chance of two deaths and having to bear the responsibility of that decision. The couple chose to abort out of fear.

My wife and I chose not to abort out of logic and out of love. We don't regret our choice, and wouldn't have even if the doctor had been correct. I wish I could say the same for our friends. They've been carrying that weight for five years.


Abortion really is a hot issue. I hope that those of you who read this will simply see this as one couple's point of view. I'm not trying to persuade, but simply show that there can be a sincere reason to be pro-life. If you wish to discuss, please PM me.

I don't want to get into politics here, but it's blanket statements like "if you're against gay marriage, you're a homophobe" that keep people polarized. I actually do try to understand the valid points on both sides of every issue.

Spoiler: the one issue in which I lean left

I tend to be conservative, but I'm PRO-gay marriage. Why? I have no stake in this issue. I'm not gay, so I have to look at why each side has its position.

My parents: conservative Catholics who look at any non-Catholic marriage as being no different than living together. Therefore, it shouldn't matter to "the religious right" whether gay people marry with a JOP. The Church will never change its stance.

Secular conservatives: "the definition of a marriage is a union between one man and one woman." Well... okay. Easy to say if you're straight. But considering the divorce rate, I'd say there are more heterosexuals that go against MY definition of a marriage, which is "a permanent union." So I figure MY definition of marriage should simply define MY marriage.

Gay people: I heard a story of a gay lover not being able to visit his dying partner in the hopsital because he wasn't family. That one story was enough to convince me that civil unions aren't an acceptable compromise.

What's the harm?: a question I ask of any issue (which usually causes me to lean right). In the case of gay marriage, I don't see the harm. The best anti-gay marriage argument is that children need both a mother and a father. Okay... but children who are up for adoption don't always make it into a stable home. I know a guy who bounced from one foster home to another. How much harm did those heterosexual couples do to him, especially the one that kept his sister and sent him away? I also have a lesbian coworker whose wife gave birth last month. Gay marriage or not, she would still be artifically inseminated, so no constitutional amendment is going to prevent a kid from having two mommies.

Rather than make a habit of demonizing liberals and assuming they're wrong about everything, I consistently and sincerely look at both sides of an issue. In this case, the result was that I very uncharacteristically leaned left.

 

[Legendary Sidekick]

I am a pro-gun liberal! (Do I get a cool t-shirt for that?)

You should.

 

[Jabrosky]

So black people who oppose affirmative action are self-hating racists against their own kind, I suppose?

I've actually heard black people say they hated other black people, even going so far as to use racist slurs like the n-word, more than once. Sorry, but I do not buy that it is impossible to disown yourself from your own race.

And as for your claims about liberals being more intolerant than conservatives based on your experience, do you know what anecdotal data is?

 

[Justme]

I've actually heard black people say they hated other black people, even going so far as to use racist slurs like the n-word, more than once. Sorry, but I do not buy that it is impossible to disown yourself from your own race.

And as for your claims about liberals being more intolerant than conservatives based on your experience, do you know what anecdotal data is?

Is this because of the the person or persons they were talking about was black or because what that person or persons were acting like or had done? I've lived around black people al my life and they casually use the N-word in conversations?

 

[Steerpike]

And as for your claims about liberals being more intolerant than conservatives based on your experience, do you know what anecdotal data is?

Yes. I thought it was clear to everyone that I was using anecdotal data, which is why I clearly stated I was speaking based on my own personal experience. Other people seem to have grasped that more quickly.

 

[Steerpike]

@Legendary

You and I probably differ on most issues. Looks like we both support gay marriage and gun rights, and apart from that I expect we're pretty far apart on social issues. I'm to the left of a lot of my liberal friends on some social issues, so there may no be much overlap there.

Nevertheless, I can comfortably say that I've never seen any evidence from anything you've said or done in these forums that you are a hateful person. Quite the opposite, in fact. Yet it has been proposed in this thread that you are inherently a hateful person merely by virtue of your beliefs. This viewpoint ignores your individuality and autonomy as an individual and casts broad characterizations upon you merely on your association with a given group of people. That seems to me to be the very definition of bigotry.

This latest exchange started with my own personal observation that of the many people I know across the political spectrum, the few who are most hateful tend to be liberal (and that's only a small subset of the liberals I know, but they are nevertheless worse than the conservatives I know). Although a thread like this represents merely additional anecdotal evidence, I have to say that I am saddened, but entirely unsurprised, that the hateful rhetoric in this very thread comes from the leftwingers.

Q.E.D.