Let's have a dialogue about, well, dialogue

[Addison]

Two traps in dialogue I've come across are the following:
1. Adding 'he/she asked' or 'he/she shouted' after a dialogue with an exclamation or question mark at the end. We already know he shouted or asked, saying so at the end is redundant is shakes the readers grip on the reality you've presented.
2. Giving a dialogue after a heated battle or indication by body language that the character(s) is angry and saying, after the dialogue, that they spoke angrily. Heck sometimes, if no prior indication, the writer puts "he said angrily" is just....blah. There's several words that can take the place of angrily "snapped, spat, vehemently, hissed etc" True you want to keep these words at a minimum but still.

 

[Ireth]

Two traps in dialogue I've come across are the following:
1. Adding 'he/she asked' or 'he/she shouted' after a dialogue with an exclamation or question mark at the end. We already know he shouted or asked, saying so at the end is redundant is shakes the readers grip on the reality you've presented.

Well, sometimes a description is necessary even with such obvious things. Anger can temper one's voice in a variety of ways -- something like "I hate you!" can be uttered in a lot of different tones. Is it a roar of fury, a shrill shriek, a barely-audible growl? All of those and more paint a clearer picture of how the words sound rather than just what they mean.

 

[Addison]

Good point. But with dialogue you don't want to keep doing "he said" "she said" "he said" "she said" all the way through. Nor do you want "he snipped" "she quipped" "he said snidely" "she whispered gently" all the way through. There must be a balance. Sort of like doing research, it's either underdone or overdone. It has to be balanced.

 

[Ireth]

Good point. But with dialogue you don't want to keep doing "he said" "she said" "he said" "she said" all the way through. Nor do you want "he snipped" "she quipped" "he said snidely" "she whispered gently" all the way through. There must be a balance. Sort of like doing research, it's either underdone or overdone. It has to be balanced.

Yes, exactly.

 

[T.Allen.Smith]

Good point. But with dialogue you don't want to keep doing "he said" "she said" "he said" "she said" all the way through. Nor do you want "he snipped" "she quipped" "he said snidely" "she whispered gently" all the way through. There must be a balance. Sort of like doing research, it's either underdone or overdone. It has to be balanced.

If written properly and spaced with action tags & tag-less dialogue, "he said/she said" can be relied upon because of its ability to disappear into the reading. Readers don't notice their use.

 

[Addison]

That is also true. Just like after a long paragraph, or long line of them, readers need shorter paragraphs.

 

[Steerpike]

If written properly and spaced with action tags & tag-less dialogue, "he said/she said" can be relied upon because of its ability to disappear into the reading. Readers don't notice their use.

Yes. In general, I favor using 'said' whenever there is a tag, and eliminating tags when possible.

 

[Butterfly]

R.U.E.

Resist the urge to explain...

(Edit: I mean in regards of writing)

 

[OnumVeritae]

What about simply keeping in mind what each character wants and how they feel when they enter each scene? I mean you can focus on word form but that should just be reflected in who the characters are and where they're at emotionally. These all seem like tips to mimic dialogue that sounds real and that can be important but it shouldn't be the driving force. Even if you're not dealing in world where characters talk like people normally do, they still have motivations and that should drive how they speak. Even if the dialogue doesn't pop, the character arch would support it if each character's motivations drives the scene.

 

[BWFoster78]

What about simply keeping in mind what each character wants and how they feel when they enter each scene? I mean you can focus on word form but that should just be reflected in who the characters are and where they're at emotionally. These all seem like tips to mimic dialogue that sounds real and that can be important but it shouldn't be the driving force. Even if you're not dealing in world where characters talk like people normally do, they still have motivations and that should drive how they speak. Even if the dialogue doesn't pop, the character arch would support it if each character's motivations drives the scene.

This is a good point. Add: Consider viewpoint and motivation for each character to the list.

 

[Addison]

The most important thing about writing dialogue is keeping the dialogue real. Real to character interaction, time in history and background. Would two drunk cowboys be talking about stocks or how the old lady in the old ranch is doing? No. Would people in a Victorinan era use words like 'cool' or 'awesome'? I don't think so. Would someone born and raised in the rural part of Minnesota who moves to Louisiana know any of the slang, lingo or local terms of the area? Highly doubt it. Keep it real.

 

[The Din]

Two traps in dialogue I've come across are the following:
1. Adding 'he/she asked' or 'he/she shouted' after a dialogue with an exclamation or question mark at the end. We already know he shouted or asked, saying so at the end is redundant is shakes the readers grip on the reality you've presented.

"Is it really any less redundant to say 'he said' after a question mark?" he asked, eyebrow somewhere near his hair-line. "Asked takes up much the same space, yet offers greater clarity...' A question mark can mean 'ask', 'demand', 'begged', etc. Sometimes ? needs clarification, same goes for old !.

I personally use very little tags whatsoever, though I'm not afraid to mix them up when I do.
"But 'said' is invisible," insisted the impertinent mythic scribes. "'Said' is--"
"Big deal," cut in The Din, "who wants to read an invisible f**king book?"

 

[Steerpike]

With respect to modern dialogue and slang, just keep in mind that a fantasy world is a made up world. Your characters can speak modern English even if the setting is reflective of a medieval one.

 

[Ankari]

I have a need to address this topic again. I've been reading some successful traditionally published authors and I've noticed something about he usage of speech tags. Specifically, whether or not to stick to using said vs other forms of expressing dialogue. Below you'll find a few excerpts:

"If I told you, it wouldn t be mysterious," Kelsier said with a smile.
Dockson rolled his eyes. "The vial is filled with an alcohol solution and some flakes of metal, Vin."
"Metal?" she asked with a frown.
"Two of the eight basic Allomantic metals," Kelsier said. "We need to do some tests."
Vin eyed the vial.
Kelsier shrugged. "You ll have to drink it if you want to know any more about this Luck of yours."
"You drink half first," Vin said.
Kelsier raised an eyebrow. "A bit on the paranoid side, I see."
Vin didn t respond.
Finally, he sighed, picking up the vial and pulling off the plug.
"Shake it up first," Vin said. "So you get some of the sediment"

-Mistborn Trilogy by Brandon Sanderson

Brandon Sanderson seems to stick to the usage of "said" whenever possible. Yet, as you can see by the bold text, he steps away from the rule. Specifically, he used the word "ask" when the question mark is right there.

"Nemed…” I hesitated. “If I do fail… I understand, a little, what will befall me. My gifts will fade, and I’ll no longer feel welcome among us. What of this place?” I gestured around. “Will it be forbidden to me?”

“Ah, child,” she murmured. “No. You will forget it.”

I swallowed. “How so?”

The deep wrinkles around her eyes tightened. “I will pluck the memory from you myself,” she said gently. “Such is my gift.”

I shivered. “Show me.” Nemed gave me a startled look. “I want to see. I want to know how it’s done.”

She chewed on her lips. “That’s not wise.”

“I want to know,” I said stubbornly. “I want to know what I face, every last bit of it.”

Nemed sighed. “Child…”

“Show her,” my mother said softly. The old woman grumbled. My mother came over to my side and took my right hand in hers. “Here’s a good one to choose.” She turned my palm upward and stroked a tiny scar in the webbing of my thumb. “Remember how you got this?”

I nodded. “The deadfall.” When I was six or seven, I’d tripped and fallen onto the stump of an alder tree that had toppled over. I’d put out my hand to catch myself and driven a splinter through it.

My mother kissed the faint mark and closed my hand over it. “That’s not one you’ll miss.”

After more grumbling, Nemed acquiesced. “You’ll have to hold the memory in your thoughts,” she said. “It only works if you consent.”

“What if I don’t?” I asked. “I mean… afterward

- Jacqueline Carey Namaah's Kiss

If you ever want a great example of FPOV, read Jacqueline Carey. But notice that she breaks the "said" rule twice in less than a page of dialogue!

‘He may not have to,’ Faint said, following Aranict’s gaze. ‘I don’t know much about battles, but I can’t see us winning this one.’‘

We’re not here to win,’ Aranict replied. ‘We’re just here to take a long time to die.’

Precious Thimble moved past Faint then, mumbling chaining words under her breath. And there, three paces to the right, stood Amby Bole, his face a stone mask, his hands clenched into scarred fists.

And the ghost of Sweetest Sufferance spoke. ‘Faint, I hear an echo of…of something.’

‘It’s nothing,’ Faint muttered in reply. Nothing but the sound of all that we are about to lose. What is that sound like? When you hear it, you will know
-Steven Erikson The Crippled God

It's not secret that I'm a huge Steven Erikson fan. Note the two rule breaks in what amounts to a quarter of a page.

So the question is: Is the "said rule" truly the industry standard? Consider that all of these are traditionally published authors with an editorial staff.

 

[ThinkerX]

So the question is: Is the "said rule" truly the industry standard? Consider that all of these are traditionally published authors with an editorial staff.

Here we go again!

More and more, I am inclined to see the overuse of 'said' along with minimal description and maybe even a despising of adverbs as being not so much 'rules', but hallmarks of what might be termed one specific brand of modern 'style'. It is a large style, yes, and prefered by many...hmmm...errr...'less sophisticated' readers, but not the only one.

 

[Ankari]

“Show her,” my mother said softly. The old woman grumbled. My mother came over to my side and took my right hand in hers. “Here’s a good one to choose.” She turned my palm upward and stroked a tiny scar in the webbing of my thumb. “Remember how you got this?”

Also, I want to point out the bold phrase. Another character does an action within another character's dialogue/action block. How can this be? I thought this was a big no-no. No?

 

[Jared]

Brandon Sanderson seems to stick to the usage of "said" whenever possible. Yet, as you can see by the bold text, he steps away from the rule. Specifically, he used the word "ask" when the question mark is right there.

For those that haven't seen it, Brandson Sanderson's writing class lectures are here. He discusses writing dialogue in this lecture.

 

[Helen]

My favorite quote about this, from somewhere I don't know is,

"Just because they're talking, doesn't make it dialogue."

 

[BWFoster78]

So the question is: Is the "said rule" truly the industry standard? Consider that all of these are traditionally published authors with an editorial staff.

Two points:

1. Published writers can get by with just about anything they want. Read The Omen Machine by Terry Goodkind and try to find anything in that book worthy of emulating.

2. For literally a decade, I read books about how to write. In that time, I encountered multiple books that addressed this issue. Not one of them advised using any tag other than said. The most recent book that I've read that addressed the subject was Self Editing for Fiction Writers. The purpose of the book is to help writers get their work to a level that is worthy of being published. The author's view on speech tags: the use of any tag other than "said" marks you as an amateur.

 

[Ankari]

2. For literally a decade, I read books about how to write. In that time, I encountered multiple books that addressed this issue. Not one of them advised using any tag other than said. The most recent book that I've read that addressed the subject was Self Editing for Fiction Writers. The purpose of the book is to help writers get their work to a level that is worthy of being published. The author's view on speech tags: the use of any tag other than "said" marks you as an amateur.

But I just gave 3 examples of awesome authors. You won't find one publisher who wouldn't dream of having these three authors under their umbrella.

I think there is a conflict going on between authors and editors. Even if you watch Brandon Sanderson's videos, as Jared linked, he talked about "Said Bookisms" and the contention he has with his editor. His editor doesn't want a single use of "reply" or "murmured" yet he, admittedly, wants to use them. He does by a rule of 1 in 5 to break "Said Bookisms."

I understand the usage of said and how it should be the dominant choice, but I don't think it should be the only speech tag used in a book.

To me, it feels like its a conflict between Those Who Do and Those Who Haven't But Teach. Like what is said about professors in a university; "Those who can't, teach."

BWFoster78, I'm particularly interested in your opinion concerning Jacqueline Carey and her not breaking up a paragraph when another character does an actin.

Thanks!