A Fantasy world without souls, spirits or an afterlife?? That's quite original =) Sometimes all of these things can make a story more complicated than perhaps it should be...
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Magical limits
- Thread starter Draconian
- Start date
sashamerideth
Maester
Sheilawisz said:
Exactly why magic happens, but it is not a focus in my story. It's the people and the experiences that matter to me.
Heck, we've got hundreds of millions, if not billions of people on this planet that think there is something after death. Doesn't mean that there really is.
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My personal theory is that consciousness is a form of energy, and energy is supposed to never be destroyed, just changing from one form to another =) In my worlds, souls are described as "energy of consciousness" and the Afterlife, at least for common people, is very similar to a world of dreams or perhaps like a very powerful lucid dreaming experience... The magical weapons work by annihilating whatever that they touch, both matter and energy, and so even this energy of consciousness itself can be reduced to nothingness.
I agree that People and Experiences in a story are really the most important part, but Magic is fun anyway =)
I agree that People and Experiences in a story are really the most important part, but Magic is fun anyway =)
Leif GS Notae
Closed Account
The question I think is standing out to me is the sickness and what levels they are. If you summon a great demon, let's say, do you get pustules and tumors that will kill you? If you groom puppies with a brush you summon from the ether, do you suffer the same thing?
I think once you get a scaled list of issues and maladies, you can use that to guide you to a conclusion. These are some good ideas though, it seems like you are almost there. I hope you can get it ironed out, I would love to hear what you have decided.
I think once you get a scaled list of issues and maladies, you can use that to guide you to a conclusion. These are some good ideas though, it seems like you are almost there. I hope you can get it ironed out, I would love to hear what you have decided.
I agree, Draconian's idea of a disease that only magically gifted people can get is very good and intriguing!! =) I have included magical diseases in my stories, but they are actually a weapon that Mages sometimes use to kill each other and they can affect common people as well.
Hello Draconian, I am curious and I have a few questions for you:
When your Mages attack with fire or lightning, what colour is the fire or lightning that they throw?? How much damage are they capable of causing with those attacks?? What special power does these fire and lightning have, or are they just regular fire and lightning attacks??
Can common people fight off and even kill Mages?? What protections can be used effectively against magical attacks??
When your Mages attack with fire or lightning, what colour is the fire or lightning that they throw?? How much damage are they capable of causing with those attacks?? What special power does these fire and lightning have, or are they just regular fire and lightning attacks??
Can common people fight off and even kill Mages?? What protections can be used effectively against magical attacks??
OrionDarkwood
Scribe
I have always looked at magic as a unlimited power source channeled via a mortal body. So the power is unlimited however a mortal shell can only handle so much. Hence why the gods are so powerful but even they are limited in what they can do with such a source. In my world of Kaneon the typical process of casting a spell is as follows:
1. Mentally draw the constructs for the different elements of the spell such as fireball requires a construct for air and a construct for fire
2. Mentally and Physical prepare oneself for tapping into the power of magic (hence why mages rarely wear armor it doesn't allow for the full range of motion and/or saps some of the power of magic aka short circuit)
3. Feed the power to the constructs until charged and release
Of course this happens in seconds and their are other ways to power a spell such as divine power or in the cases of Bloodmages get their power by infusing magical power into blood they collect.
- Thread starter
- #28
Draconian
Dreamer
Hello Sheilawisz, To answer your question the fire and lighting color is different depending on the mage that cast it. The damage of these attacks is equivalent to how much energy the caster puts into the spell. Their is more than one kind of fire spell, lightning however is one spell that has many variations. The common people won't have to worry much about most mages because their too busy trying to fight somethings and recruit new members, also they have factions that disagree. Yes, common people can kill mages because they are not invulnerable, but it's not always easy. But on the other hand since the common people outnumber the mages, they can probably kill them. (Ratio of mages to common people 1 to 400) A common protection against magic is bow and arrow because arrows are faster than most spells. Also distance is a very hampering thing for mages because velocity equals energy. So they have to put more energy into spells to make them go farther. Their is also a very rare staff that is used by cloaked individuals that absorb magic.
Thanks for your Answer, Draconian!! That was very interesting, I like your Mages =) Sometimes I feel that it would be better for me to write stories with magic and mages like that, with more limits, easier to imagine, also easier for the readers to relate to such characters... Anyway I cannot change my stories now, and I am way too obssesed with power...
My magic can take four different colours: Silver, violet, blue and white (this includes their weapons and also when they are just playing with tricks and stuff) and it can be invisible too =)
I have another question!! Can they fly? And in case they can, what is it like? How fast can they fly??
My magic can take four different colours: Silver, violet, blue and white (this includes their weapons and also when they are just playing with tricks and stuff) and it can be invisible too =)
I have another question!! Can they fly? And in case they can, what is it like? How fast can they fly??
- Thread starter
- #30
Draconian
Dreamer
Some mages in fact can fly, it is simply using energy to generate a constant flow of magic from your feet. If the typical mage used this spell they would be exhausted in minutes. Also steering for a spell like this is trial and error which means practice. It's not like they have wings, however their a type of mage that can fly much easier. Their called windmancers, they use wind magic. Their is also a race with magical abilites for flying.
grahamguitarman
Sage
Hmm the magical sickness thing is a good plot device. Personally I like to see magic in stories but don't like to see wizards become too powerful. Once you have magic users with seemingly unlimited powers then it becomes hard to deliver a good plot without getting all deus ex machina.
Much better I think to make magic have greater personal consequences for the user the greater the power of the spell. Or to simply have more limitations on what magic can achieve in the first place, thereby making magic less godlike.
Consider Lord of the Rings, Gandalf uses very little magic at all, much of what he does is about knowledge not power. If he had the kind of awesome powers that some writers want to give their wizards, then the lord of the rings would be a very short story indeed. Most of the battles would have been over in minutes (zap there goes an entire legion of Orcs). Frodo would have had no journey to speak of (come here hobbit and I'll whisk you to mount doom in seconds). In fact there would have been no need for the supporting cast of elves men and ents at all. Because Gandalf could have single handedly sorted the whole thing out and been home in time for tea.
Having mega powerful wizards with awesome magic may be good in world of warcraft or the like. But for novel writing purposes the greater the magic, the more counterproductive it is in storytelling terms. You just leave readers wondering why wizard x doesn't just go in and sort it out during his lunchbreak, and save all the real characters having to get so het up.
Edit: just noticed the bit about magicians getting exhausted from flying too much. I gave one of my characters the ability to fly magically and she has similar limitations too. Also there are severe limits on what she can carry with her, making flight quite impractical if she wants to travel with even the most basic essentials.
Much better I think to make magic have greater personal consequences for the user the greater the power of the spell. Or to simply have more limitations on what magic can achieve in the first place, thereby making magic less godlike.
Consider Lord of the Rings, Gandalf uses very little magic at all, much of what he does is about knowledge not power. If he had the kind of awesome powers that some writers want to give their wizards, then the lord of the rings would be a very short story indeed. Most of the battles would have been over in minutes (zap there goes an entire legion of Orcs). Frodo would have had no journey to speak of (come here hobbit and I'll whisk you to mount doom in seconds). In fact there would have been no need for the supporting cast of elves men and ents at all. Because Gandalf could have single handedly sorted the whole thing out and been home in time for tea.
Having mega powerful wizards with awesome magic may be good in world of warcraft or the like. But for novel writing purposes the greater the magic, the more counterproductive it is in storytelling terms. You just leave readers wondering why wizard x doesn't just go in and sort it out during his lunchbreak, and save all the real characters having to get so het up.
Edit: just noticed the bit about magicians getting exhausted from flying too much. I gave one of my characters the ability to fly magically and she has similar limitations too. Also there are severe limits on what she can carry with her, making flight quite impractical if she wants to travel with even the most basic essentials.
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@Draconian: Thanks for satisfying my curiosity about your Mages and magic!! =) I always love to hear about what Magic is like in other Fantasy worlds, and it seems to me that yours sounds particularly attractive- Well, we have very different magic and, like I said before, sometimes I feel that it would be good to write stories with more limited magic because the readers find it easier to relate to characters like that.
Flying is a power that I am particularly obsessed with: My Mages fly at high speeds sometimes exceeding forty thousand miles per hour, and they can keep flying as long as they want travelling huge distances across my endless sea... It's like unlimited power that comes out of nowhere (just like they can throw one magical nuke after another) and I love to imagine what it would feel like to fly like that...
@Grahamguitarman: When I first explored Mythic Scribes, I was rather surprised by how many Fantasy writers here dislike and sometimes even hate super mages- I still cannot understand why this happens, but I think that it's simply because, both for the writer and the readers, it's easier to relate to characters with limited powers or without magic at all.
I agree that the story of Lord of the Rings and so many similar stories would just not work with super mages included (my Mages would just nuke the ring, nuke Sauron, nuke Mordor and get it over with in about three minutes) so there would be no story at all, but it all depends on the style of your story and the problems that your characters are going to find as they advance in their adventures.
Different styles of Magic can be applied to different styles of stories, and even super mages can be successfully included in a good Fantasy story if you know how to do it =)
Flying is a power that I am particularly obsessed with: My Mages fly at high speeds sometimes exceeding forty thousand miles per hour, and they can keep flying as long as they want travelling huge distances across my endless sea... It's like unlimited power that comes out of nowhere (just like they can throw one magical nuke after another) and I love to imagine what it would feel like to fly like that...
@Grahamguitarman: When I first explored Mythic Scribes, I was rather surprised by how many Fantasy writers here dislike and sometimes even hate super mages- I still cannot understand why this happens, but I think that it's simply because, both for the writer and the readers, it's easier to relate to characters with limited powers or without magic at all.
I agree that the story of Lord of the Rings and so many similar stories would just not work with super mages included (my Mages would just nuke the ring, nuke Sauron, nuke Mordor and get it over with in about three minutes) so there would be no story at all, but it all depends on the style of your story and the problems that your characters are going to find as they advance in their adventures.
Different styles of Magic can be applied to different styles of stories, and even super mages can be successfully included in a good Fantasy story if you know how to do it =)
Anders Ämting
Auror
Honestly, I don't think limits to magic is as interesting as figuring out what magic is, how it fits into the story and what style you are going for.
I had this one story where magic was very subtle and vague. I didn't even call it magic, there wasn't a proper word for it. It was just these special talents people had that made them supernaturally good at certain things. One was good at finding things, another was good at unlocking things that were locked, and so on. There were magical swords, but even they were just kinda special in that they excelled in a certain thing, like a blade that delivered more momentum in its blows then it should and recieved less momentum then it should in parries. This was all because I was trying to build a very mysterious atmosphere.
Another project I had going was radically different, taking place in a setting where magic was based on the four elements and where skilled mages became blatantly superhuman: We're talking flying, throwing giant blasts of fire, teleporting by bending space, conjuring antimatter and a lot of other stuff like that. That's my "magical superheroes" type setting.
In my latest project, magicians are basically psychics, and nearly all magic concerns the mind, the spirit, perceptions and enhancing ones physical body. There's no throwing fireballs from your fingertips and so on. Though, a seperate part of the system does allow you to gain one individual special power.
I don't think I've ever thought about it as imposing limits, though - any limits are just a product of the style I was going for: I don't want my mages to throw fire from their hands, for example, because it doesn't fit the concept I have in mind.
You know, somehow it always bothers me a bit how many fantasy stories make a point of there definitely being some sort of afterlife, or that gods are definitely real. (Or not, as it were.) I personally tend to try my best not to confirm nor invalidate the belief systems of my characters, unless the plot absolutely demands it, which is exceedingly rare. It just doesn't feel like something I should have an opinion on, if that make sense.
I had this one story where magic was very subtle and vague. I didn't even call it magic, there wasn't a proper word for it. It was just these special talents people had that made them supernaturally good at certain things. One was good at finding things, another was good at unlocking things that were locked, and so on. There were magical swords, but even they were just kinda special in that they excelled in a certain thing, like a blade that delivered more momentum in its blows then it should and recieved less momentum then it should in parries. This was all because I was trying to build a very mysterious atmosphere.
Another project I had going was radically different, taking place in a setting where magic was based on the four elements and where skilled mages became blatantly superhuman: We're talking flying, throwing giant blasts of fire, teleporting by bending space, conjuring antimatter and a lot of other stuff like that. That's my "magical superheroes" type setting.
In my latest project, magicians are basically psychics, and nearly all magic concerns the mind, the spirit, perceptions and enhancing ones physical body. There's no throwing fireballs from your fingertips and so on. Though, a seperate part of the system does allow you to gain one individual special power.
I don't think I've ever thought about it as imposing limits, though - any limits are just a product of the style I was going for: I don't want my mages to throw fire from their hands, for example, because it doesn't fit the concept I have in mind.
You know, somehow it always bothers me a bit how many fantasy stories make a point of there definitely being some sort of afterlife, or that gods are definitely real. (Or not, as it were.) I personally tend to try my best not to confirm nor invalidate the belief systems of my characters, unless the plot absolutely demands it, which is exceedingly rare. It just doesn't feel like something I should have an opinion on, if that make sense.
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"I agree with Black Dragon, that there should not be unlimited magic. It can really distort a story and cause endless plot problems and the creation/resolution of conflict.
Draconian, you appear to have the basics established, but you should really have them refined--how and why a user of magic contracts the sickness. The cause of rifts opening. Although the reader may not end up being privy to the knowledge, having such will keep the world and the way magic functions consistent.
Revealing how magic 'works' is something that can be presented over time in the novel, as needed for the reader to understand. It's often something readers have an interest in, and will keep them reading to find out more.
In the world contained within my novel Flank Hawk, users of magic take on/suffer effects based on the magic they use and how powerful they become. Seers, for example, lose their physical sight as they increase in magical strength/skill. Enchanters are more susceptible to magic used upon/against them, and often hide their identity/fact that they are an enchanter. How 'fun' would it be to become a powerful necromancer?" - Quoted from TWErvin2
I like your take on side effects caused by magic users, I definitely agree that having limits is better. Everyone needs a weakness be it physical or mental, makes the characters more realistic and therefore easier to relate to.
Evi
Draconian, you appear to have the basics established, but you should really have them refined--how and why a user of magic contracts the sickness. The cause of rifts opening. Although the reader may not end up being privy to the knowledge, having such will keep the world and the way magic functions consistent.
Revealing how magic 'works' is something that can be presented over time in the novel, as needed for the reader to understand. It's often something readers have an interest in, and will keep them reading to find out more.
In the world contained within my novel Flank Hawk, users of magic take on/suffer effects based on the magic they use and how powerful they become. Seers, for example, lose their physical sight as they increase in magical strength/skill. Enchanters are more susceptible to magic used upon/against them, and often hide their identity/fact that they are an enchanter. How 'fun' would it be to become a powerful necromancer?" - Quoted from TWErvin2
I like your take on side effects caused by magic users, I definitely agree that having limits is better. Everyone needs a weakness be it physical or mental, makes the characters more realistic and therefore easier to relate to.
Evi
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Anders Ämting
Auror
Well, I think you are talking about personality flaws here, not actual "kryptonite" type weaknesses or a literal physical weakness like going blind or whatever. That kind of thing can actually backfire - for example, I'm not blind, so I don't relate very well to blind people. That's the thing about relating; it's relative.
Personally, I don't really like the idea of power always requiring some kind of price, nor do I think that makes it more interesting. Power is just power, and some people happen to have it just because and how they decide to use it, well, that's the interesting part. To quote Abraham Lincon: "Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power."
It's actually not that hard to make very powerful people relatable, all you need to do is make them act and think like humans. If you can make your readers think: "Yeah, that's probably what I would have done if I had unlimited power", then congratulations, your characters are relatable. They only stop being relatable when the story becomes more about the power and less about the person.
Anyway, I think what I was clumsily trying to say in me previous post was: If you try to see magic as a system that operates in a specific way, it will have inherent limitations simply because the practicioners need to adher to that system. The only limits your really have to concern yourself with are the limits of what you want to be possible in your story. The rest is either a consequence of power, or mere extra flavor.
Hello Anders =) You have a good point about making very powerful characters relatable, by the means of making them act and think like humans so the readers can feel more related to them... even if those characters have super magic!! I have a little problem with that especially because my characters are not human (no humans in my stories at all) but I hope that I have made my Mages a little relatable after all =)
Talking about Magic and magical limits again, I do not understand why almost everyone here seems to view Magic as a power that most always be limited, following a near scientifical system full of rules and logical explanations- Just why??
After all it's Magic!!
Yes, some limits are needed and even my super Mages have certain limits (especially about what their own weapons do to them, the way that they die because of those weapons, why it's not easy to come back and also about their travelling system between different realities) but most people here in Mythic Scribes have magic that is way too limited =(
Talking about Magic and magical limits again, I do not understand why almost everyone here seems to view Magic as a power that most always be limited, following a near scientifical system full of rules and logical explanations- Just why??
After all it's Magic!!
Yes, some limits are needed and even my super Mages have certain limits (especially about what their own weapons do to them, the way that they die because of those weapons, why it's not easy to come back and also about their travelling system between different realities) but most people here in Mythic Scribes have magic that is way too limited =(
grahamguitarman
Sage
Sheilawisz;24977 Talking about Magic and magical limits again said:
Lol I've started a thread about this question earlier today, asking why we need to go into such scientific detail to explain magic, instead of just having magic with a bit of mystery to it. My magic users do have limitations, but thats not because of a system of rules or physics, its because they simply can't. I don't think I have to explain to my readers why their magic is limited, anymore than I have to explain why even the best athletes can't jump over buildings. It just is.
If your story is about a world of supernatural beings that all have unlimited magic, then I guess that would work within its own framework. Its when you have godlike beings in a mortal world that you have to consider the consequenses to plot, and have to explain why x didn't just zap y's entire army in the first chapter.
One question I do have though - how has your world survived without a major magical catastrophe tearing the whole world apart? I mean we are only mere mortals and we destroy our world, often tearing it apart in wars - imagine what we would do with REAL power! - just curious
Edit: I do agree howver that sometimes it is good to see magic fireworks unleashed, one of my favourite short stories is by Ursula K Le Guin and is called The Rule of Names. In that there is a wonderful magical battle that really gives you a sense of wonder at the magic used, along with a nicely amusing ending
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Anders Ämting
Auror
Hm, perhaps "system" wasn't the best choice of words... To me it's a question of scale and style. Depending on the story, I might want magic to be flashy, or I might want it to be more mystical. Maybe I want my magicians to be fairly low key, or maybe I want them to be leveling cities and throwing buildings at each other. Obviously, if I gave my characters unlimited powers, they would be gods and that would limit the kind of stories I would be able to write about them. So, that's what "magic limits" mean to me: scale and style.
Though, to answer your question, making magic very clearly defined can certainly be desirable - that second concept I mentioned took place in a Harry Potter-style magic school, and while at first I didn't want to complicate things, I found I had to make the magic system rather defined simply because my main character was taking magic classes and actually studying it.
Also, having the laws of magic in mind when you write helps you from writing yourself into a corner or contradicting yourself, which is very easy to do if you are just making things up as you go along. That doesn't mean you have to spell it out in the story, it's enough that you know enough ahead of time to keep things consistent.
"Magic" is just a word, anyway. It doesn't have to mean "mysterious."
Thanks for your question and your interest =) My answer is that my Mages have their own Queens and they let the people have their own Queens as well- The Mages live in their own cities in very isolated areas (usually, high mountains) and they rarely visit towns and cities of the common people, so you don't see them killing people and nuking cities every now and then...
Sometimes they have indeed attacked cities and caused great destruction in their world (which happened in my first novel) but not enough to completely destroy their own world, they are not interested in doing that!! Also, I do not have only one world, but an entire collection of them: These worlds are continent-size islands in an endless sea, and my stories talk about especially two of these worlds that are separated by a distance of about 146000 miles.
These two worlds are inhabited by two rival cultures of Mages that hate each other, and they had a war like two thousand years before my first novel starts- One of the worlds was devastated to the point that it was not recognizable, and the other, victim of a surprise attack that managed to penetrate its defenses, was totally annihilated...
The Mages that lost the war later created a new world, but this kind of catastrophes are not common in my stories!!
@Anders: I agree that having Magic clearly defined in your mind and knowing what your characters can and cannot do is very important to write good stories- My point is that many Fantasy writers are viewing Magic as a scientifical thing full of limitations and I do not really like that =P
Anders Ämting
Auror
While I see you point, I don't think it's a matter of liking it or not liking it - either way you're making the same mistake. We shouldn't have opinions on what magic "should be", as a definition of the term. Rather, magic should be tailored to suit the story you're trying to tell. Sometimes you want magic to be detailed down to a scientific level, sometimes you don't. But neither approach is inherently more desirable then the other.
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