Magical limits

[sashamerideth]

I think I will echo something I recently read on Brian Sanderson's blog.

It isn't really what magic in your story can do. It is more interesting what your magic cannot do. He used the example of Superman. What made him and his magic (loose term), more interesting were his weaknesses, Kryptonite and his moral code, so what he could not do, what his weakness was, and more importantly, what he would not do.

Just his thoughts, but I do agree that it is the limits that make magic interesting for me.

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[Sheilawisz]

While I see you point, I don't think it's a matter of liking it or not liking it - either way you're making the same mistake. We shouldn't have opinions on what magic "should be", as a definition of the term. Rather, magic should be tailored to suit the story you're trying to tell. Sometimes you want magic to be detailed down to a scientific level, sometimes you don't. But neither approach is inherently more desirable then the other.

Well, I agree Anders: The beauty of Magic is that it can be anything that you like or you need for your specific stories =) It's alright to have many different magic systems in Fantasy, but what I do not agree with is that Magic is becoming way too scientifical these days =P

Sorry, I am just too deeply in love with mysterious, mystical and powerful magic!!

@Sashamerideth: Certainly, what your characters cannot do is a key element for any Fantasy story =)

 

[Draconian]

Sheliawisz, you like super mages however, super mages need rules to exist otherwise they wouldn't be super mages but gods.

For example, what would you say about a magical race with godlike powers but side effects that lead to this race's extinction. Power always comes at a cost, sometimes that cost is obvious other times that cost is subtle..........

 

[Sheilawisz]

Sheliawisz, you like super mages however, super mages need rules to exist otherwise they wouldn't be super mages but gods. For example, what would you say about a magical race with godlike powers but side effects that lead to this race's extinction. Power always comes at a cost, sometimes that cost is obvious other times that cost is subtle.

Well Draconian, I agree that certain rules and limitations are needed even if you have super mages in your stories =) I have included indeed some limits and rules in my Magic, otherwise the stories would not work at all because they would be able to do anything they wanted.

What exactly do you mean by gods??

If we could travel back in time to the Bronze Age with fighter jets and nuclear bombs, we would perhaps be considered some form of gods- In my worlds, the mages are considered mages by the common people (well, I accept that sometimes they are regarded as demons) but there are no gods at all, and since these mages can be killed by their own weapons and people have witnessed this happening, it's a well-known fact that they are not invulnerable.

Another point is that these mages have a tendency to solve their problems by direct and forceful means, often causing more trouble than they had before and sometimes getting in a heck of a trouble because of their own freak behavior =) They are certainly not "perfect beings" and some readers would say that they are just freaking nuts!!

Gods should be something more "perfect" than that, in my opinion =)

 

[grahamguitarman]

Gods should be something more "perfect" than that, in my opinion =)

Lol have you never read Norse mythology! the norse gods were about as selfish and badly behaved as you can get!

 

[Sheilawisz]

@Graham: I love Norse mythology =) My fav story is one about Thor's hammer getting stolen by the ice giants, and the king of the giants wanted to marry Freya so they want her in exchange of the hammer- then Thor is dressed up as Freya and he goes to meet the giants so he can recover the hammer by himself, it's so fun!!

It's interesting how the Norse gods do have some limitations and problems, and they cannot do anything they want just like that =)

 

[grahamguitarman]

Yeah - Thats why my own mythology is inspired by Norse gods - its just more fun to write LOL.

 

[Anders Ämting]

Power always comes at a cost

Oh, I'm not so sure about that. After all, does intelligence come at a cost? Does beauty, or strenght?

What is power anyway, other then yet another advantage one man has over another?

Lol have you never read Norse mythology! the norse gods were about as selfish and badly behaved as you can get!

Well, the thing about that is that the word "god" gives the wrong impression these days. People are too used to the Abrahamic model, with gods as a separate class at the top, followed by lesser being like angels, and so on. The problem is that this heirarchy doesn't work on a lot of pagan religions.

The Aesir were vaettir, or wights. Spirit people, basically. They were a mere tribe within a much vaster class of psychopomp beings. True, they were powerful -the most powerful of their kind- and people prayed to them, but they were also people. They married and they argued and they conspired and they had serious personality flaws, and sometimes they fought wars with other tribes of spirit people like the Jotuns or the Vanir.

@Graham: I love Norse mythology =) My fav story is one about Thor's hammer getting stolen by the ice giants, and the king of the giants wanted to marry Freya so they want her in exchange of the hammer

See, that's what I'm talking about. Isn't it a bit weird that an ice giant would try to marry a goddess? Not to mention that he almost got away with it?

That kind of thing makes a lot more sense once you recognise that the Jotun and Aesir weren't really that different. The norse people didn't just believe in gods, they believed in a whole supernatural world. That's what I like about pagan mythologies - it's story-telling elevated to religion.

 

[Sheilawisz]

See, that's what I'm talking about. Isn't a bit weird that an ice giant would try to marry a goddess? Not to mention that he almost got away with it?

That kind of thing makes a lot more sense once you recognise that the Jotun and Aesir weren't really that different. The norse people didn't just believe in gods, they believed in a whole supernatural world. That's what I like about pagan mythologies - it's story-telling elevated to religion.

That was beautiful, Anders!! XD!

 

[Steerpike]

I don't mind either high-powered magic or low-powered magic, but there have to be some consistent logic governing it (and the world), or at least the appearance of such, or I'd throw the book in the trash. Unless it was meant to be a parody or something.

 

[Anders Ämting]

That was beautiful, Anders!! XD!

For comparisson, check out the Japanese Shinto religion. It's sometimes said to have over a million gods, except their word for god, kami, doesn't quite mean "god" the way we think of it. A kami can be anything from the minor nature spirit of a rock or tree, and right up to the sovereign sun goddess herself. It's kinda the same basic idea.

In fact, I sometimes wonder if Shinto is more or less what the norse religion would have looked like if it survived to modern times.

 

[grahamguitarman]

For comparisson, check out the Japanese Shinto religion. It's sometimes said to have over a thousand gods, except their word for god, kami, doesn't quite mean "god" the way we think of it. A kami can be anything from the minor nature spirit of a rock or tree, and right up to the sovereign sun goddess herself. It's kinda the same basic idea.

In fact, I sometimes wonder if Shinto is more or less what the norse religion would have looked like if it survived to modern times.

Agreed, the norse religions would probably be more like that had they survived the might of the holy roman empire, it would certainly be a more interesting world to live in lol. The minute you start to give one entity domain over all, you seriously distort the nature of what it means to be a god.

 

[myrddin173]

Oh, I'm not so sure about that. After all, does intelligence come at a cost? Does beauty, or strenght?

Well for intelligence and strength I would say the cost would be the time it takes to acquire them. I also wouldn't call beauty a power it is a natural trait but if I had to come up with one I would say the jealousy of others.

 

[Anders Ämting]

Well for intelligence and strength I would say the cost would be the time it takes to acquire them.

I fear you are confusing intelligence with education.

As for strenght, let me put it this way: Supposed one man is born with a naturally large body, and another is born small and skinny. The larger man, most likely, will be stronger then the small one. I'd argue he didn't pay any particular price for that strenght: it was simply a matter of luck.

Likewise, if one man is born with magic power and another isn't, why should that magic come at a price?

I also wouldn't call beauty a power it is a natural trait but if I had to come up with one I would say the jealousy of others.

I think that's reaching for it. Jealously is a problem in other people, not a problem in beauty itself.

Anyway, I think you misunderstand: I'm not saying beauty is the same thing as power. I'm saying that they are both advantages, and I don't see why the advantage of power has to "always come with a price" when other advantages like natural beauty or talent clearly do not.

 

[Benjamin Clayborne]

I fear you are confusing intelligence with education.

Well, intelligence is really just like any other ability humans have: if you don't use it regularly, it withers.

Likewise, if one man is born with magic power and another isn't, why should that magic come at a price?

In real life, it doesn't have to. But stories have to be dramatic, and a protagonist who's powerful with no downside is not very interesting.