Men, manhood and manliness

[buyjupiter]

The most common version of this seems to be "masculinity isn't about physical strength, it's about standing up for what you believe in." Gravity Falls did this one straight in the episode where Dipper meets the Manotaurs--they provide a ludicrously exaggerated model of conventional manliness ("I have six Y chromosomes, three Adam's apples, pecs on my abs, and fists for nipples!"), and he provides an alternative model by recognizing them as bullies and standing up to them. Dexter's Laboratory, on the other hand, goes straight for the parody ("It's not the beard on the outside that counts; it's the beard on the inside!")

I must not remember that episode of Dexter's Laboratory. I'd thought I'd seen them all. *off to Youtube*

Yeah, I've seen more parody attempts than realistic examination of societal expectations of manliness, and while parody does have its place...it doesn't really offer up any viable alternatives.

I'm not saying I have the answer here, on what non-traditional manliness is like or how it should be portrayed, but I don't think that the current expectations put on men are the way to go. (For one thing, they lead to the creepy, stalker idea of romance.)

 

[Mindfire]

I take the under-lieing point that too often the only male role offered in film and TV is the worst of the Alpha male cliché.

I'd hardly call Luke Skywalker an example of the "alpha male cliche".

I would personally love to see examples of how to write menfolk who aren't the epitome of GI Joe. I'd love to see examples of men talking to other men in world about what it means to be a man. As a woman, I don't get to be around when men have their man-to-man chats about how societal definitions of manhood suck and they really just want to be dancers or whatever it is that society doesn't accept men doing. (I've had the same kind of conversation with my girl pals about how societal definitions of femininity really suck and I presume men have the same kinds of conversations--correct me if I'm wrong.)

Really my only issue with "societal definitions of manhood" is that physical prowess is often overvalued at the expense of intelligence, creativity, and problem solving skills. But Sherlock has pretty much single-handedly blown that out of the water (or nearly so), so I'm good now. Lol.

 

[Ireth]

Really my only issue with "societal definitions of manhood" is that physical prowess is often overvalued at the expense of intelligence, creativity, and problem solving skills. But Sherlock has pretty much single-handedly blown that out of the water (or nearly so), so I'm good now. Lol.

Hmm. What would you say about the Robert Downey Jr. films which have Sherlock as a skilled boxer as well as a detective?

 

[Svrtnsse]

I guess I should try an weigh in on this as I started it and then went off and didn't post all day.

What I have done is thought about manliness and manly traits. I had a hard time coming up with something that is uniquely manly that isn't related to the male body.
It isn't hard to come up with something that is generally perceived to be manly. But for pretty much all those things you can say "women do that too" or "why can't women do that". I feel it's really all about perception and social expectations. Society dictates that some things are manly and some things are womenly, but there's no real reason for them to be - other than that that's how we (as a society) like it. The exception, of course, being when it relates to our bodies and that does rule out a fair bunch of things.
So in the end it's all cultural or something. We play the roles we're given and while some of us question them, some of use never even think about it.

I also thought about what manly things I do and about when I feel manly.
Last time I felt very manly was last St Pats. Me and a friend went to a small pub after work, drank beer out of tankards and talked about relationship and family issues in our past. A lot of serious words were said and it was something of a bonding experience - even though not particularly much beer was drunk (it was early and we both had to get up for work). I don't quite know why that made me feel manly, but it did. It felt pretty good.

I thought about manly things I do - manly as perceived by society.
The manliest thing I do on a regular basis is I meet up with the lads and have a handful of pints or watch a couple of movies. We're a group of four men of which one has girlfriend, one wants a girlfriend and the other two don't particularly care. We usually meet at the pub, drink beer and talk bullshit for a few hours. Then we stroll home or, if it's been a good night, we order pizza and watch a crappy movie until the host fall asleep on the sofa - then the rest of us stumble home.
There's no reason women can't do that. Sometimes women we know show up and join in and have a few pints and a slice of the pizza. It happens, but it's different. Thing is, it's the same kind of difference if a guy outside the group shows up. The social dynamics change and I think that's more important than whether the extra person is a boy or a girl.

Women do this too. Except in the conventionally accepted womenly way, where the pub is a bar and the pint is a glass of wine. They still have the pizza though - at least as far as I can tell, even though it's not as womenly.

The core essence of these activities are the same though; meet up with a couple of friends under pleasant, relaxed conditions and spend some time together. It's just the set decorations that are different.

Finally I thought a bit about the link to the video I posted. I too felt it lacked something of a punchline or a conclusion, but it did bring up some things that I found interesting to think about - overly PC or not.
A thing like "win the victory and get the girl as a price" which is brought up isn't something I've really thought very much about myself. I guess now the thought is in my head I'll have a hard time getting rid of it. I'd already heard about the Bechdel test but after thinking a bit about it I decided I liked the idea behind it, but I don't approve of the specifics - it's too blunt, too easy to pass without actually passing it and it's too easy for people to get hung up on.
I thought a bit about strong female characters and strong male characters and as I like summarizing things and coming up with catchphrases I ended up on something about how the whole speech is about how important it is to create male characters that can deal with strong female characters (in a respectful way). I forgot the exact phrasing, but that's less important.

 

[Guy]

I would personally love to see examples of how to write menfolk who aren't the epitome of GI Joe. I'd love to see examples of men talking to other men in world about what it means to be a man. As a woman, I don't get to be around when men have their man-to-man chats about how societal definitions of manhood suck and they really just want to be dancers or whatever it is that society doesn't accept men doing. (I've had the same kind of conversation with my girl pals about how societal definitions of femininity really suck and I presume men have the same kinds of conversations--correct me if I'm wrong.)

I can only give you my personal experience - 43 years of experience as a guy, and I've yet to hear guys talking about that. Having spent all but two of those years in the southern United States, there may be regional differences.

 

[skip.knox]

>too easy to pass without actually passing it

Nicely said. No rule should have to be responsible for the people who misuse it.

I think physical traits come most readily to mind, but your story about St Pat's shows there are depths beyond that. Male friendship is an important area. Men play together in particular ways, they are sad together in particular ways, they have a sense of honor and tragedy and courage that is peculiarly male. I've long thought men are the true romantics, not in the sense of romantic love but in the sense of heroic self-sacrifice, of the grand quest, of courage under fire. To quote Donald Fagan: my back to the wall, a victim of laughing chance; this is for me the essence of true romance. That has always struck me as a specifically male lyric.

I think literature has it all over movies when it comes to looking into these aspects of the human experience. By its very nature, a movie can't really say much in a two hour span, so it's gratuitous to criticize movies for not being more than they are. It's like criticizing Saturday cartoons for not being more philosophical.

 

[Mindfire]

Hmm. What would you say about the Robert Downey Jr. films which have Sherlock as a skilled boxer as well as a detective?

I actually liked that, because RDJ's Holmes doesn't win fights by virtue of brute strength but through technique and the application of his intellect to the situation at hand. It's problem solving, but with fists involved. Plus those bits where he analyzes everything his opponent is going to do and plans how to counter it is pure awesome and I will never get tired of that gimmick. Ever. I'm not against heroes having fighting skills or even physical power, I just prefer my heroes to be clever as well. This is why I prefer Batman over Superman for example.

 

[Jabrosky]

I can only give you my personal experience - 43 years of experience as a guy, and I've yet to hear guys talking about that. Having spent all but two of those years in the southern United States, there may be regional differences.

I have to say that this has been my observation too. Most guys I have observed don't think twice about gender issues, let alone talk about them in depth. At the most they'll groan about those annoying feminists or maybe complain about women's expectations of them (e.g. the whole bad boy/nice guy debate). My best guess is that when you're in a position that doesn't regard itself as under-privileged, rightly or wrongly, you don't worry about how you're being held down.

 

[Svrtnsse]

My best guess is that when you're in a position that doesn't regard itself as under-privileged, rightly or wrongly, you don't worry about how you're being held down.

I think this is probably central to it. When I'm out with the lads, we'll usually talk about things that interest us - games, movies, music, women - or rant about things we dislike - work (we all work at the same place); whatever aspects of our respective lives bother us at the moment; the world in general and pop culture in particular.

It's very rare that either of us brings up some aspect of life where we feel that society has some unfair or unrealistic expectations of us that we're not keen on living up to.
The only exception that comes to mind is the issue of having a relationship. Like I mentioned in my previous post one of us has a girlfriend, one of us wants a girlfriend, and the other two, don't particularly care. The issue here is that it's not entirely socially acceptable to not be in, or pursuing, a relationship (this is probably a topic worthy of a thread of its own) Edit: or at least fooling around or trying to get laid.

Love is happiness and having a relationship means you have found love so if you're not in a relationship you must be unhappy, right? That's of course utter bollocks, but it's still generally treated as an unquestionable truth in our society.
It can get a bit annoying sometimes.

Edit: that expectation applies to women as well btw
A common example is all the targeted adds for dating sites of various kinds; from buddhist women wanting to move to Europe, to rich married women wanting a lover on the side, to young girls in my area wanting to date older men (that one smarted a bit).
That kind of thing gets on my nerve sometimes and it's a pretty clear expression of society's expectations of me.

 

[Feo Takahari]

I hesitate to rec this book, since the author clearly has an axe to grind, but it does provide a lot of insight into how masculinity is constructed at the high school level:

Dude, You're a ***

 

[A. E. Lowan]

I hesitate to rec this book, since the author clearly has an axe to grind, but it does provide a lot of insight into how masculinity is constructed at the high school level:

Dude, You're a ***

Thanks for the link, Feo - even if the author has an axe to grind! Writing convincing masculine lives is actually something that I often cope with, especially as our series has a lot of adolescent males of differing sexual identities. Your link lead me to another title, Amazon.com: Masterminds and Wingmen: Helping Our Boys Cope with Schoolyard Power, Locker-Room Tests, Girlfriends, and the New Rules of Boy World eBook: Rosalind Wiseman: Kindle Store

I read a title by the author a while back called Queen Bees and Wannabes about girls in high school, which helped in the development of our female teenage character, but finding books about boys was harder. I see these titles are newer, though, so maybe research just got a little easier.

 

[Nihal]

I think physical traits come most readily to mind, but your story about St Pat's shows there are depths beyond that. Male friendship is an important area. Men play together in particular ways, they are sad together in particular ways, they have a sense of honor and tragedy and courage that is peculiarly male. I've long thought men are the true romantics, not in the sense of romantic love but in the sense of heroic self-sacrifice, of the grand quest, of courage under fire. To quote Donald Fagan: my back to the wall, a victim of laughing chance; this is for me the essence of true romance. That has always struck me as a specifically male lyric.

You seem to assume that women can't have these exact qualities. Let's pick self-sacrifice as an example: When a man protects a young woman he's being a courageous man, when a woman protects a young man she's acting out of maternal instinct. "Probably just that hormonal stuff," the society would say.

For some mysterious reason the same qualities have different names and different overtones for different genders. Go figure.

 

[skip.knox]

It may seem that way, but I did not intend it that way. Women can exhibit behaviors of courage, etc. Plenty of examples. What I was trying to say is that courage may manifest in different ways. To take a terribly stereotypical example, a woman might protect her children and show courage doing so, but this resonates differently from a man doing the exact same thing.

That's what interests me, that there can be connotations, reverberations, that differ by gender. Even more interesting as a fantasy writer is wondering how these "human" characteristics might change with different species. While we don't have any goblins or ogres to examine in our world, we readily recognize the behavior of a mother bear in protecting her cubs, so much so that the image enters our vernacular. From this I surmise that there may indeed be many points of commonality between humans and dwarves or elves or pixies, but there must be different reverberations as well, much as with the differences between men and women. There just seems to be acres of room for exploration here.

 

[Caged Maiden]

Jupiter asked for examples of male characters who were realistic but not G.I.Joe. I'd like to think I'm pretty good at writing that.

I have a man who is probably the epitome of a man's man if I let him get that way, (he's a werewolf, super strong and even has a magical presence that terrifies people if he wants to) but he never solves things with violence and he meets a character he treats very tenderly, especially when they are about to split up and he asks her to remain behind on the mission. She sort of balks and asks, "When did this thing become too dangerous for me?" He admits he thinks she's pregnant and would feel better not worrying about her, but the thing about their relationship is, she was raped in a prison and he wants to be with her. He even says, "I've raised children that weren't mine before." That's sort of his thing. He wants to be a father, a really good one, because his wife and son died in an outbreak and he's sort of stuck in that place, unwilling or unable to move past it.

So, that's one guy who could be a lot more "manly" by society's standards, but I think makes a perfectly admirable character, though I could have pushed the envelope as to his say, strength or whatever. And in the next book, that character meets a guy who's struggling with his self-worth. The werewolf sort of takes on a mentor-ish role in a scene, talking about life and growing old and so much more, but basically instilling confidence in a young soldier who feels past his prime. Another scene I feel like doesn't rely on societal standards of "manliness". Instead, the werewolf and his aging grandfather, tell the young soldier how to overcome and share their hard-won life lessons with him, bringing him into their secret world that relies heavily on family ties.

I think that's one fundamental thing I've learned from being married. Men feel like failures if they cannot provide what they believe they ought to. Maybe that's money... maybe it's something else. But I'm lucky to have such a real person to share my life with, because he's certainly made my male MCs more colorful. That being said... my male MCs tend to verge on my ideals, rather than being any old version of a man I could think of. I mean... I know a log of jerks I wouldn't want to write a story about. I prefer to have "good" guys in my stories--not to say they are always nice, and i pretty much write gray scale morality, but they're likeable guys, difficult though they are at times.

 

[buyjupiter]

Jupiter asked for examples of male characters who were realistic but not G.I.Joe. I'd like to think I'm pretty good at writing that.

I think that's one fundamental thing I've learned from being married. Men feel like failures if they cannot provide what they believe they ought to. Maybe that's money... maybe it's something else. But I'm lucky to have such a real person to share my life with, because he's certainly made my male MCs more colorful. That being said... my male MCs tend to verge on my ideals, rather than being any old version of a man I could think of. I mean... I know a log of jerks I wouldn't want to write a story about. I prefer to have "good" guys in my stories--not to say they are always nice, and i pretty much write gray scale morality, but they're likeable guys, difficult though they are at times.

A big thank you to Caged and everyone else who's given me some food for thought for my own characters. I have to admit that even though you didn't mean the phrasing, I got a huge chuckle out of imagining a "log of jerks" floating down a stream somewhere to hopefully crash into something! I may have to use that phrase sometime, for when I don't want to curse.

I am somewhat disappointed to find out that men don't have those conversations about shedding societal definitions of manhood, but I realize there are reasons for that conversation not happening. This expectation that I had previous to talking to you all is probably the direct result of growing up in geek culture, where machismo was not prized, but knowledge and honesty were. And why I flounder when I interact with men who are very much bought into the one "twue" way to be a man. I forget that machismo is even an option until I am confronted with it.

I do wonder if anyone else does find that the "manliness" as defined in comic book heroes differs vastly from the "manliness" defined by your typical action movie hero/war movie? I've typically seen comic book heroes as a little bit too flamboyant to properly fall within the very narrow definition of a man's man. This may be why I will normally go to any comic book movie, or watch animated version of comic books--no matter how bad it may be, rather than go watch an action movie. Yes, in both there is violence as a method of problem solving and very masculine men...but the comic book heroes seem to me to be queering the idea of what the definition of manliness is and I like that a lot.

 

[Jabrosky]

I am somewhat disappointed to find out that men don't have those conversations about shedding societal definitions of manhood, but I realize there are reasons for that conversation not happening. This expectation that I had previous to talking to you all is probably the direct result of growing up in geek culture, where machismo was not prized, but knowledge and honesty were.

If this has been your experience, that surprises me. My own experience has convinced me that so-called geeky guys can be at least as sexist as other men. Maybe even more straight-out misogynistic since they tend to see themselves as ranking low on the male sexual totem pole and take their frustrations out on women.

 

[Nihal]

skip.knox , I apologize if it sounded I was bashing you. I'm aware that you didn't mean it in that light, but I wanted to point out how hypocritical our society can be. That distortion on the perception is actually a pet peeve of mine and if I were a man I would be upset, but I'm a woman, so probably I'm "on my PMS". =P


Jabrosky, machismo and misogyny often hold hands but they're not the same issue.

Being less of an "alpha male", these man in theory have lesser chances of having a relationship (or so do they believe). Instead of taking their frustration on the bad guys, these nice guys take it out on the women, who only like bad guys. This whole friendzone trend shows us this phenomena well, how somehow the woman is vilified and the guy belonging to a minority is automatically considered a nice guy. The said jerk she chosed instead of the nice guy is never mentioned, nor the nice guys try to achieve or impose manly ideals. The silver lining: If a woman is friendzoned, it's "coz she's ugly".

Another example: Men are geeks, women are posers. For some mysterious reason men aren't required to hand out their geek card to prove they're nerds/geeks, women are. I reckon many of these men use this title to explain why they're single, "women don't like nerds", and having women in the same social group—their haven where they were safe from rejections and expectations—make them incredibly uneasy.


What brings us back to the topic: They have problems coping with rejection and rejection is a kind of failure. Considering what Caged Maiden said of failure that's some good food for thought.

 

[Philip Overby]

I am somewhat disappointed to find out that men don't have those conversations about shedding societal definitions of manhood, but I realize there are reasons for that conversation not happening. This expectation that I had previous to talking to you all is probably the direct result of growing up in geek culture, where machismo was not prized, but knowledge and honesty were. And why I flounder when I interact with men who are very much bought into the one "twue" way to be a man. I forget that machismo is even an option until I am confronted with it.

Growing up, no, I never had these conversations. However, I did grow up with mostly a geek lifestyle in a way (playing games, reading books, D&D). I guess my group of friends never cared to think about these things because we were just having fun.

As I've gotten older though, I have had these discussions with my wife. I feel like I need to do the most I can, but at the same time, I want to have all the time in the world for writing. I realize I can't have my cake and eat it too, so I try to balance it as much as possible.

 

[Feo Takahari]

I do wonder if anyone else does find that the "manliness" as defined in comic book heroes differs vastly from the "manliness" defined by your typical action movie hero/war movie? I've typically seen comic book heroes as a little bit too flamboyant to properly fall within the very narrow definition of a man's man. This may be why I will normally go to any comic book movie, or watch animated version of comic books--no matter how bad it may be, rather than go watch an action movie. Yes, in both there is violence as a method of problem solving and very masculine men...but the comic book heroes seem to me to be queering the idea of what the definition of manliness is and I like that a lot.

What do you make of Western heroes? I'm pretty fond of how the genre celebrates restraint--villains do everything to excess, while heroes do what's appropriate for the situation, not even talking unless they have something meaningful to say. (Or as Thecatamites put it, "BOY he's quiet!")

 

[buyjupiter]

What do you make of Western heroes? I'm pretty fond of how the genre celebrates restraint--villains do everything to excess, while heroes do what's appropriate for the situation, not even talking unless they have something meaningful to say. (Or as Thecatamites put it, "BOY he's quiet!")

Huh, and again, there's a subtle difference between Western heroes and action movie heroes, at least in my eyes. Which may explain why I like Westerns (as problematic as they are in depicting Native Americans). Although Western heroes and action movie heroes do show the same tendency to be silent, and the villains in those are just as excessive (see Bruce Willis'/Alan Rickman's performances in Die Hard), the Western hero tends to be doing what he does to protect something (usually family concerns, like in 3:10 to Yuma), whereas the action hero seems to get dragged into the situation with nothing but survival on his mind (there are some notable exceptions to this theme, see Die Hard example). I'm not saying I don't ever watch action movies, but it did take me until last year to watch Die Hard, even though I love Bruce Willis' and Alan Rickman's performances.

So maybe, upon closer examination there are more ways of being masculine depicted in media and literature than I thought. Although there is the common thread of violence being the solution to most problems, there are different ways to be masculine.

Also, SF action movies are different enough again from action movies that I'll watch those, but they seem to play closer to Western character archetypes for the hero (gotta protect someone) and truly excessive villains. AI is probably the best example that doesn't play the rescuing the damsel in distress card, and the villains in the film are just ordinary people which is why it's creepy...and there wasn't much masculinity in that film, which is understandable since the main characters were androids, but what they do say about masculine representation was interesting. (I realize I'm probably alone in thinking that it's a great film, but I haven't seen it since I got to pick the movie date with my high school sweetheart. And that's probably why I never got to pick another movie for our dates again...)