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On NOT Hiring an Editor (Interview)

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This is like network television, just @#%#-ing out content, throwing it at the wall and seeing what sticks. This author found what sticks and is making money off it, and if making money is the ultimate goal, why bother?

I applaud the honesty. Obviously there's a market for garbage, and this author is happy to supply that garbage.

However, that's quite a bit different than having personal pride in the material, trying to win literary awards, etc. The sad truth is that garbage can and often does appeal to the masses, while literary novels often don't. This is why one of the teen moms from MTV is a New York Times bestselling author, while David Mitchell is not.

Messed up, isn't it?

So, there's some good network television. Again, we have no idea as to the actual quality of this author, although the fact that he or she has such a high level of productivity does tell us that they write a lot. Also, this particular author seems to take some pride in their writing as when the blogger continues to attack the writing, the author sticks up for it in a very nice way that would be difficult for anyone to do when they are being ambushed and attacked.

I hope I never win any "literary" literary awards personally. I mean, money is nice and all and yes it would be nice to support myself with my writing, but if I have to go through the dreck of crap that is "literary" writing in today's world, well, it's crap. I can't stand it. Give me writing that entertains before writing that is art any day.

(obviously, writing that entertains that is also art would be the ideal, but if I have to pick one or the other, entertainment please).
 

Sanctified

Minstrel
I get what you're saying, although by literary I don't mean some Naked Lunch-esque Scrotie McBoogrballs stream of consciousness BS about people jacking off under bridges. (IIRC that's actually part of Naked Lunch. People masturbating under bridges = max shock factor and literary brilliance in 1959, apparently.)

Despite Tom Hanks pissing all over Cloud Atlas by turning the movie into some high-minded Mitch Albom-style sap fest, that book ran the complete gamut of emotions and was entertaining as it gets. And literary genre fiction not only exists, it's thriving.

Next time someone poo-poohs genre fiction as low-bro crap, point 'em to Iain M. Banks, stuff like "Against A Dark Background" and "Consider Phlebas." Writing doesn't get more masterful than that, and it doesn't lose an ounce of effectiveness despite the fact that its's space opera -- in fact, it says more about humanity than most "literary" novels could hope to.

I've also mentioned Coleson Whitehead on these boards. He's a novelist who has been slapped with the literary label, and he hasn't fought it, but he was also completely unapologetic when critics went after him for writing a zombie novel. Who says a zombie novel can't have literary merit? And who says a zombie novel can't tell us a whole lot about modern society and the way we live?

The point is, genre fiction does not have to be somehow less serious, or less worthy because of its premise or setting. It's just as valid as some wannabe Great American Novelist writing 400 pages about the first world problems of a suburban family.

As for network TV, personally I think there are a handful of decent shows, but most of it is watered down by suits and focus groups to have the widest appeal possible, which is how we end up with tepid crap like The Event. And reality? That's another post entirely...
 
Thanks for that. I requested my library to get "Cloud Atlas", but haven't gotten a chance yet. Still, the fact that you state it is "literary" makes me trepidatious to read it.

My main point was that we have no idea if the author in question was producing crap or not, and he or she clearly takes some pride in their work, in spite of being relatively mellow over being ambushed and attacked after what was pretty clearly an interview requested by the blogger.

I wouldn't take the word of a biased blogger about it is all.

Also, in case it's not clear: I'm firmly of the opinion that not having an editor does not mean that you don't take yourself seriously or don't have pride in your work. It could just mean that you're poor or that you cannot afford an editor or that having an editor would not make good business sense for you.

And yes, maybe poor people shouldn't have the rights and opportunities of not-poor people, but I'm going to keep operating under the assumption that they do and if they can't afford an editor that they go out and do the best they can without one unashamedly.

Edit: Of course, if you can afford it, then I strongly recommend getting one (or a whole team of them). If you can't, then do your best. It's possible your best isn't good enough, but it's also possible that it is.
 
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GeekDavid

Auror
And yes, maybe poor people shouldn't have the rights and opportunities of not-poor people, but I'm going to keep operating under the assumption that they do and if they can't afford an editor that they go out and do the best they can without one unashamedly.

Edit: Of course, if you can afford it, then I strongly recommend getting one (or a whole team of them). If you can't, then do your best. It's possible your best isn't good enough, but it's also possible that it is.

I'm going to take offense at that.

I happen to be between jobs, subsisting on the pittance unemployment pays. I am still using an editor, though it's a friend.

There is no reason "poor people" can't find a friend or friend of a friend who is good with the language to provide a second pair of eyes. It may not be as good as a professional editor, but it's better than some of the dreck I've read that actually got published!
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
I disagree with both the above posts.

An inexperienced author putting out a product without utilizing the services of a professional editor, to me, would be no different than me trying to sell crayon scribbles from my 3-year-old on Amazon as "art." In most cases, the dreck that such authors foist upon the unsuspecting public is not of a sufficient quality to justify asking people to pay for it.

Note that a beta reader or friend who is "good with the language" is not a professional editor and cannot replace one.

If you cannot afford an editor, perhaps you should go the traditional publishing route. Once your work is good enough to be accepted by someone willing to pay for those services for you, you'll know your quality is there.
 

GeekDavid

Auror
Foster, if my writing was as bad as this is (download the Kindle sample at your own risk, it is truly horrible) then yes, I'd save my meager pennies for a professional editor.

But given that I've already gotten positive feedback on the first draft, I think I can best that dreck even with my friend serving as editor.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
I think you can go it alone if you are a real Do-it-Yourselfer. But most people aren't, and won't realize the gulf of difference. The danger is that doing it yourself or asking a few friends to read through it might lead to a false sense of security about how good your product really is.

Every bad book you can buy on Amazon was put there by somebody who thought it was ready.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
Foster, if my writing was as bad as this is (download the Kindle sample at your own risk, it is truly horrible) then yes, I'd save my meager pennies for a professional editor.

But given that I've already gotten positive feedback on the first draft, I think I can best that dreck even with my friend serving as editor.

The problem is that you may not have any comprehension of how bad your final draft is.

Maybe you, somehow, are a rare exception, but, in my experience, most new authors don't have much of a clue about what it takes to write a good book. They simply don't have the tools necessary to understand what they've done wrong and all the things that drag what seems to them like a perfectly fine story down to total dreckitude.

I realize that this is not a popular opinion, but I think that, if you can't approach the quality level of a Big 6 published book, you shouldn't self publish. I also think that it's incredibly difficult for you to gain an understanding of if you've reached that level without the services of someone that has an experience level that approaches those utilized by Big 6 editors.

This opinion is based on the following:

1. It's a waste of your time and money to do otherwise. I think you have little chance of standing out as a new author lacking an audience (if you have already built an audience, my opinion is completely different) if you don't put out a truly quality product.

2. A sense that, by putting out your book for sale, you're claiming to be a professional. As an engineer, I've had it ingrained into my head that, if you claim to be a professional, you have to provide a professional quality product.
 

GeekDavid

Auror
The problem is that you may not have any comprehension of how bad your final draft is.

Maybe you, somehow, are a rare exception, but, in my experience, most new authors don't have much of a clue about what it takes to write a good book. They simply don't have the tools necessary to understand what they've done wrong and all the things that drag what seems to them like a perfectly fine story down to total dreckitude.

I realize that this is not a popular opinion, but I think that, if you can't approach the quality level of a Big 6 published book, you shouldn't self publish. I also think that it's incredibly difficult for you to gain an understanding of if you've reached that level without the services of someone that has an experience level that approaches those utilized by Big 6 editors.

This opinion is based on the following:

1. It's a waste of your time and money to do otherwise. I think you have little chance of standing out as a new author lacking an audience (if you have already built an audience, my opinion is completely different) if you don't put out a truly quality product.

2. A sense that, by putting out your book for sale, you're claiming to be a professional. As an engineer, I've had it ingrained into my head that, if you claim to be a professional, you have to provide a professional quality product.

Oh, trust me... if the manuscript is dreck, Mark is sure to tell me about it. He's that kinda guy.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
Oh, trust me... if the manuscript is dreck, Mark is sure to tell me about it. He's that kinda guy.

Understood, but what is his qualification to tell you?

I'm speaking from experience here. I ran my drafts by my writing group (one of whom is a freelance editor) and a couple of really good beta readers.

After seeing the comments my content editor made, I would have been embarrassed had I released a draft that I thought wasn't too bad.

It's not that I don't think your friend will tell you that you suck; I think it's unlikely he'll be able to tell that you suck.
 

Chilari

Staff
Moderator
So here's a question: is an experienced reviewer good enough to pass for an editor for someone without money? Reviewing books required more thoughtful reading than normal, and often involves taking notes; reviewers read a variety of levels of quality and know how to recognise both good and bad.
 

GeekDavid

Auror
Understood, but what is his qualification to tell you?

I'm speaking from experience here. I ran my drafts by my writing group (one of whom is a freelance editor) and a couple of really good beta readers.

After seeing the comments my content editor made, I would have been embarrassed had I released a draft that I thought wasn't too bad.

It's not that I don't think your friend will tell you that you suck; I think it's unlikely he'll be able to tell that you suck.

Uh, this guy has been known to forward me (suitably redacted) emails from his work with extensive comments on the grammar and sentence structure.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
Uh, this guy has been known to forward me (suitably redacted) emails from his work with extensive comments on the grammar and sentence structure.

Grammar and sentence structure are trivial concerns. Really.

If you're more concerned about that than tension, emotion, and story/character arcs, I guarantee what you produce isn't going to be close to being ready.

Sorry.
 

BWFoster78

Myth Weaver
So here's a question: is an experienced reviewer good enough to pass for an editor for someone without money? Reviewing books required more thoughtful reading than normal, and often involves taking notes; reviewers read a variety of levels of quality and know how to recognise both good and bad.

I think a reviewer can say, "I don't like this book for these reasons, and/or I love this book because of this."

Here's the problem:

The "reasons" the reviewer points out may or may not have anything to do with the underlying problems with the book. Professional editors have training to spot problems with book and tell authors how to fix them. I don't advocate doing everything your editor says just because, but you do have to understand that they have a level of training that a lay person simply doesn't have.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
So here's a question: is an experienced reviewer good enough to pass for an editor for someone without money? Reviewing books required more thoughtful reading than normal, and often involves taking notes; reviewers read a variety of levels of quality and know how to recognise both good and bad.

I would compare it to the legal secretary who passed the bar.

That is, maybe sometimes, if they take this area of the field that passionately.


Grammar and sentence structure are trivial concerns. Really.

I do wish more people would distinguish between editing and proofreading.
 

Chilari

Staff
Moderator
So if I call myself an editor, charge money, and say the same sorts of things I pick up in critiques I send authors I'm reviewing, but before the book gets published, does that make a difference?
 

GeekDavid

Auror
Grammar and sentence structure are trivial concerns. Really.

If you're more concerned about that than tension, emotion, and story/character arcs, I guarantee what you produce isn't going to be close to being ready.

Sorry.

Thanks, but I think I'm gonna go with it anyway, once the editing gets done. I simply cannot afford what an editor will charge, and refuse to send it off to some Big Name Publisher who pushes dreck onto the public (see my review in the Books forum of Trudi Cavanan's The Magician's Guild) and get pennies on each dollar of the sales.

I'm not saying it's going to be The Hobbit or Hunger Games, but it's better than a lot of the dreck I read regularly as part of my reviewing "job".

If you don't like indy published books with volunteer editors, don't buy it. Please, don't buy it. I can live without your money, I think, and without the negative review you'd be all but certain to write.
 

GeekDavid

Auror
So if I call myself an editor, charge money, and say the same sorts of things I pick up in critiques I send authors I'm reviewing, but before the book gets published, does that make a difference?

Great idea! I should do that myself. I'll call myself a Professional Editor and rake in over $1,000 for telling someone what any reasonably intelligent person should be able to spot.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
So if I call myself an editor, charge money, and say the same sorts of things I pick up in critiques I send authors I'm reviewing, but before the book gets published, does that make a difference?

I'm just going to say that I had a professional editor work on a short story of mine, and the difference was night and day.
 
C

Chessie

Guest
I disagree with both the above posts.

An inexperienced author putting out a product without utilizing the services of a professional editor, to me, would be no different than me trying to sell crayon scribbles from my 3-year-old on Amazon as "art." In most cases, the dreck that such authors foist upon the unsuspecting public is not of a sufficient quality to justify asking people to pay for it.

Note that a beta reader or friend who is "good with the language" is not a professional editor and cannot replace one.

If you cannot afford an editor, perhaps you should go the traditional publishing route. Once your work is good enough to be accepted by someone willing to pay for those services for you, you'll know your quality is there.
I disagree with this line of thought, with all due respect. You have experience in this business yes, but every artist is different and not the same method works for everyone. I'm in GeekDavid's boat in that my pennies are also meager. I'm a small business owner already trying to make it and things are looking up for me, despite the fact that many people in my life didn't think my business would work. I've ignored them all and had unending faith in myself and so far, so good.

Now though I agree that editors are important, I think its rather unjust to say that if you cannot afford one then you should wait and be published traditionally. How does any other author's 'poorly written works' affect any of us personally? What harm is there in letting people achieve their dreams and learn the publishing business first hand?

I don't understand the animosity when it comes to self publishing and for example, not using an editor.
 
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