On Writing Women. Looking for honesty...

[pmmg]

My fault, I think she was replying to you. Please disregard the parts about automatic romance.

And seriously, why does Alien always come up in these conversations? It's a thriller script that bears little resemblance to a fantasy novel.

I would think the answer to this would be obvious, she is a heroine with which most readers will have some familiarity, and she is an example of a strong action hero type role. True, she is not really in the fantasy realm, but many characters that are like her are, they just don't have as wide recognition.

If the expectations of both genders are exactly the same, wouldn't it imply that there are no actual differences at all between them?

The very fact that they are two separate genders already equates to differences. Perhaps, through some effort, we could remove some of the differences in expectations, but remove all of them? I'm gonna put that near impossible.

 

[Svrtnsse]

The very fact that they are two separate genders already equates to differences. Perhaps, through some effort, we could remove some of the differences in expectations, but remove all of them? I'm gonna put that near impossible.

Indeed, we can remove some differences in expectations, but far from all of them. There are bound to be some differences, and I think it's better to accept that and try to accommodate for those differences in a fair manner than to try and force everything to be equal.

 

[Michael K. Eidson]

Also, the idea that because you switch a character's gender you automatically have to rethink all their relationships because once you have two people of different genders together they automatically, probably, have feelings for each other is very misguided.

No need to argue against something that wasn't said. The word relationship does not always imply romance. In general, two sisters will act differently with each other than two brothers act with each other, which is different from how a brother and sister will act with each other. Any character who can be either male or female in a story without changing their relationships with other characters must have only certain types of relationships. This seems more limited to me than the situation where a character has many relationships of many types. To me, the fewer relationships you have for your characters, the more likely they are to be stereotypes.

 

[Mythopoet]

I'm fully with you on this. We're all products of our surroundings, and it's not difficult to see how men and women are treated differently within modern society (talking the real world here, not a designed fantasy world). We're subjected to different expectations and they help shape who we are.

If we remove or change these expectations, we also change the effect they have on people.

I think it's safe to say that a fantasy world can have expectations of men and women that are different to those in the real world, and it will be reflected in how the men and women of that world relate to each other.
I think it's less safe to assume that a society in a fantasy world will have the exact same expectations of men as it does of women. It could be done, but it might then raise the question of why you didn't just go with a single-gender society instead.

If the expectations of both genders are exactly the same, wouldn't it imply that there are no actual differences at all between them?

I agree. A fantasy world can have vastly different expectations. That's up to the author. But the author should be mindful of what differences are projected onto the genders from the society they live in and which are real, inherent, objective differences. And the author should also keep in mind that whether or not you make those differences part of the story is entirely up to the kind of story you want to tell. A simple there and back again quest, for example, needn't change at all if you switch a character's gender unless the author chooses to make it a part of the story. It's a choice, not a necessity.

In a fantasy world you absolutely could have a single gender society if you so desire. There's literally nothing to stop you. And that raises the point that the only obvious, inherent differences between human men and women are their roles in the act of reproduction. Which means that any differences displayed in a story other than those related to reproduction are solely the choice of the author.

 

[Mythopoet]

Also, everyone, please stop assuming my post was in response to yours unless I actually quote it in my own post.

 

[Annoyingkid]

There are differences in the genders in what events take place , aka there's a reason they say time travellers SHOULD NOT TOUCH ANYTHING. In my own story:

Female mc to male --> The rejection of the mentor happens at the same time, but critically,, after he's been tested for potential and trained from childhood by said mentor, who would not have thought to test a girl.. As he lost his childhood, he basically becomes like Michael Jackson. A huge manchild who wants to play games with kids all the time. So he gets married and has kids of his own. Gets killed by bandits sooner or later. World end's as it lacks it's greatest hero.

Her brother to female ---> Doesn't infiltrate lawless, abusive bandits. Doesn't stop their plans, society collapses.

 

[Mythopoet]

There are differences in the genders in what events take place , aka there's a reason they say time travellers SHOULD NOT TOUCH ANYTHING. In my own story:

Female mc to male --> The rejection of the mentor happens at the same time, but critically,, after he's been tested for potential and trained from childhood by said mentor, who would not have thought to test a girl.. As he lost his childhood, he basically becomes like Michael Jackson. A huge manchild who wants to play games with kids all the time. So he gets married and has kids of his own. Gets killed by bandits sooner or later. World end's as it lacks it's greatest hero.

Her brother to female ---> Doesn't infiltrate lawless, abusive bandits. Doesn't stop their plans, society collapses.

These differences are solely your own choice as the author. Which is fine. But don't pretend you would have to make those changes. It's your own point of view, not a universal truth.

 

[Michael K. Eidson]

Also, everyone, please stop assuming my post was in response to yours unless I actually quote it in my own post.

This only works if you actually quote someone's post.

 

[Annoyingkid]

These differences are solely your own choice as the author. Which is fine. But don't pretend you would have to make those changes. It's your own point of view, not a universal truth.

I would if I'm being faithful to the characters. The universal point I'm making is that events in timelines are like throwing stones in ponds. They lead to other events which lead to others.

 

[Mythopoet]

This only works if you actually quote someone's post.

And look, I did that twice, when I was actually responding to a particular post. Which means that if I don't quote anyone, my post is not directed at anyone. It's just a post about my point of view.

 

[Mythopoet]

I would if I'm being faithful to the characters. The universal point I'm making is that events in timelines are like throwing stones in ponds. They lead to other events which lead to others.

But you, as the author, are the one who creates the characters and the plot. They are a result of your own choices. They don't flow down from Heaven. You have to take responsibility for how you choose to write things.

 

[Annoyingkid]

But you, as the author, are the one who creates the characters and the plot. They are a result of your own choices. They don't flow down from Heaven. You have to take responsibility for how you choose to write things.

So do you. If you're genderswapping and nothing changes, that indicates a flat story. Certainly a flat character.

 

[Michael K. Eidson]

In a fantasy world you absolutely could have a single gender society if you so desire.

I assumed this discussion was about humans. You can make up anything you want and pretend there are no differences between the genders. If that's the point some here are trying to make, then I have no argument with that. It's fantasy, so make your own rules. Go for it. No one to stop you.

 

[Mythopoet]

I assumed this discussion was about humans. You can make up anything you want and pretend there are no differences between the genders. If that's the point some here are trying to make, then I have no argument with that. It's fantasy, so make your own rules. Go for it. No one to stop you.

No one here tried to make that point. You're taking away too much from a small part of the conversation.

 

[Mythopoet]

So do you. If you're genderswapping and nothing changes, that indicates a flat story. Certainly a flat character.

That's merely your opinion based on no evidence.

 

[Michael K. Eidson]

And look, I did that twice, when I was actually responding to a particular post. Which means that if I don't quote anyone, my post is not directed at anyone. It's just a post about my point of view.

And if your views go against what someone else posted, then they have the right to argue against your view, which will most likely be from the viewpoint of the post they made.

No one here tried to make that point. You're taking away too much from a small part of the conversation.

I don't know of any human society that is single gender, so if you're talking about a single gender society, you're talking about a non-human society. Or is there something I don't know?

 

[Annoyingkid]

That's merely your opinion based on no evidence.

It's a sign of a character being beholden to the needs of the plot.

Lets go back to my example for a second. The bandits in my story are basically all male, rapists, murderering agents of chaos. A female character is not going to want to choose to live there and be abused over and over. If she did, that would indicate flatness in the charcater, that the character is just driven by plot requirements.

To have the same dynamic as a male infiltrating males, I would have to change the bandits to majority female, which like the stone in the pond, changes more things.

A writer is bound by realism and credibility in some ways. Writers do not have carte blanche to change anything and stop the causal chain on a whim or because of plot, if they are writing faithful to characters and a baseline realism.

 

[pmmg]

Indeed, we can remove some differences in expectations, but far from all of them. There are bound to be some differences, and I think it's better to accept that and try to accommodate for those differences in a fair manner than to try and force everything to be equal.

I cant argue with that

Also, everyone, please stop assuming my post was in response to yours unless I actually quote it in my own post.

Sorry, Mytho...I do my best.

These differences are solely your own choice as the author. Which is fine. But don't pretend you would have to make those changes. It's your own point of view, not a universal truth.

Well, it may be my point of view, but I do think it is informed by an effort to understand what is true. I might ask if there are any such things as universal truths, but I do think somethings are kind of universal, and I do try to capture that. If its not true, I would think that would become more evident as I more observe the world I live in, and others have lived in, but the evidence must be convincing.

I don't know if that would lead to me making changes in a work, solely by changing a gender of a character, but if upon reading such character, the fact of their gender made it read as untrue or just not very likely, then yes, I would have to rewrite it. Cause, I think its truth would matter.

Which means that any differences displayed in a story other than those related to reproduction are solely the choice of the author.

I think this is incorrect. There are more differences between genders than just reproduction capabilities. If you had a single gender society, I fear that whatever their means of reproduction, I would be able argue they were not really a good match for our real world genders. The means of reproduction would make them in some way different. That might not show itself in physical attributes, but it would almost certainly show itself the gender roles of such a society.

When we are writing fantasy, sure, I can say this is fantasy, and so it is untrue but I can roll with it. But if we are trying to show what we think is true, and using the backdrop of fantasy to portray it, well, I'm gonna question. I think that is fair. I know it can be written, I don't know if it can be made true. True may not be the goal, so its okay if I get to put that aside and just enjoy. (See, I did not use Lara Croft, say, as an example, cause I know she is not true, but she is more in the realm of fantasy than Ripley, but Ripley I can see as true, thus I went with her example.)

 

[Svrtnsse]

I assumed this discussion was about humans. You can make up anything you want and pretend there are no differences between the genders. If that's the point some here are trying to make, then I have no argument with that. It's fantasy, so make your own rules. Go for it. No one to stop you.

It was I who brought up the idea of a single gender society. This was in response to a comment that got me thinking about how differences between the genders are the consequence of decisions the author makes (including discrimination) and how that's not necessary for the story. I could have gotten that wrong though.

It seems to me that if you have a race of two genders (let's call them humans), there will be differences between the genders. In certain situations these differences will have an impact on the story you're telling, and in other situations they may not. Changing the gender of a character may also impact the story and may require parts of it to be rewritten, but it might not.

It depends on the story.

 

[Annoyingkid]

I would also argue that it doesn't matter if the differences are solely your own choice as the author, they change what the characters are regardless. Again, mentor who only tests males = run of the mill sexist. Mentor who tests females only. That's something different. If he tests both, then he's a different person.