On Writing Women. Looking for honesty...

[Heliotrope]

Given that I write romances, my approach to writing characters is going to be different than another author catering to a mostly male audience. Let's face it: that's just the way it is.

I write mostly to a female audience, and I have to be very careful as to what issues and insecurities these characters deal with. They tend to be heavy because it's what I love exploring. My heroines usually have deep issues that stand in the way of their emotional fulfillment (the last one had daddy issues). But given that it's romance, this sort of character exploration is expected. Is it in an epic fantasy? Like, the kind some of our members write? I'm thinking of Skip who writes his historical fantasy novels with goblins. Would a young woman with daddy issues be a character male epic fantasy readers would want to read? Uh...probably not. They'd call her a whiner and be over it. Now, put that same character in front of a romance reader who wants to see this heroine's daddy issues NOT keep her from love with the man of her dreams. It turns into a conflict that drives the story. It wouldn't be so if Lila were a character in Skip's book. See where I'm going with this?

I think Helio's main concern can be explained by this: you were not the target audience for those books. Since you like your female characters a certain way, and like to learn things when you read, then those books won't satisfy you as a reader. They don't satisfy me much either. I do love Tolkien, but he's about the one exception besides C.S. Lewis.

Ha! Mic drop.

Yep. This is exactly it. I can totally call myself out as a self indulgent idiot. I have no ego, lol.

It is not written for me. This is so totally true. This is why I have only liked a really narrow sub sect of fantasy and most of the big name genre stuff has not interested me.

Chessie OMG you nailed it!

Ok, so question, is it that no one is writing the stuff I like? Or that publishers are not publishing it, as Nimue mentioned earlier?

 

[Chessie2]

Ha! Mic drop.

Yep. This is exactly it. I can totally call myself out as a self indulgent idiot. I have no ego, lol.

It is not written for me. This is so totally true. This is why I have only liked a really narrow sub sect of fantasy and most of the big name genre stuff has not interested me.

Chessie OMG you nailed it!

Ok, so question, is it that no one is writing the stuff I like? Or that publishers are not publishing it, as Nimue mentioned earlier?

Not sure if you'll like my answer but to the people who snub Indie books: you're missing an entire world of raw art out there. Traditionally published works go through a major process of vetting. Not so with Indie books. The quality is high if you know which authors to read. And a lot of times, Indie works are indistinguishable from trade works. I'm not certain what kinds of books you're looking for...but Indies are strong in Urban Fantasy. (Here's looking at you, A.E. Lowan!)

 

[skip.knox]

Heliotrope, did you get your original question answered? By women, that is? I'm curious about the answer now, too.

I noticed a bunch of us guys chimed in, unasked. Typical male.

 

[Dark Squiggle]

Heliotrope, did you get your original question answered? By women, that is? I'm curious about the answer now, too.

I noticed a bunch of us guys chimed in, unasked. Typical male.

Why does being male make my opinion here worth less?
I believe Heliotrope started this thread with a link to an interview with Philip Pullman, who I believe is also male.

 

[skip.knox]

It doesn't. Nobody said that.

But if you read the OP, the question was aimed specifically at women.

We weren't asked.

 

[Dark Squiggle]

True. Now how do I delete all my posts?

 

[Heliotrope]

Heliotrope, did you get your original question answered? By women, that is? I'm curious about the answer now, too.

I noticed a bunch of us guys chimed in, unasked. Typical male.

Ha! Yes, I think so. Some women felt it was a bit of a snub, others aren't bothered by it overly much. Some feel very strongly that we are represented in weird ways, some couldn't care less. I think Chessie is right, I think I'm perhaps just not the audience for a lot of the older, more "epic" fantasy. That is as much a truth as I'm going to get, I think. That is fair. Honest, which is what I asked for.

I got some great recommendations of other places to look where I might find something I relate to on a deeper level. That was much appreciated. The debate went so beyond my original post, which tells me that this is a very open ended question with a lot of layers to it. The discussion was enlightening for me in a lot of ways, not just of how women are represented in fantasy, but for a lot of people who identify in a variety of ways.

As far as guys jumping in, oh gosh! I love that! The more the merrier.

Why does being male make my opinion here worth less?
I believe Heliotrope started this thread with a link to an interview with Philip Pullman, who I believe is also male.

Thanks Dark Squiggle, but I think Skip was being a bit tongue in cheek there. It was funny.

 

[skip.knox]

Thanks, Heliotrope. Every reader is different. Gee, ain't I profound? But the ways in which we differ, that's where things get interesting. These conversations are immensely worthwhile, both as a reader and as a writer. I can't say that I encounter them anywhere else, save on writers forums.

 

[Heliotrope]

I can't say that I encounter them anywhere else, save on writers forums.

Ain't that the truth...

"Gee, nice elderly lady in front of me in the grocery store, what are your feelings on the way women are represented in traditional fantasy fiction?"

or,

"Thanks everyone for coming to my Christmas party. Now, lets all sit in a circle and discuss how a variety of sexualities are misrepresented in fantasy fiction. Specifically, traditional epic fantasy."

 

[Svrtnsse]

Something that often comes up in association with this type of discussion is the question (often from male writers) of how to write good female characters. It's a bit of a can of worms to open up, but it may be interesting still. Why is it that so many male writers seem to think it's so difficult to write females, and why do they worry so about it?
Or is it just me seeing that, and has it changed - it's been a while since this came up last?

 

[rhd]

I couldn't finish Dune and had to plod through LOTR. I did love The Hobbit though. I only read books like that because my dad and brothers were avid readers and were pretty intellectually sexist (the massive age difference didn't seem to matter). So I read a lot of historical romance because of the female characters. Also pretty much every boy I met was either violent or said some really sexist $hit to me or to some other girl way into college and after, and if I met one who was polite, I used to wonder why he wasn't saying or doing something mean. Now, of course, I don't put up with any crap. The result of all this is that I take my male characters very seriously and take great interest in adding layers and depth to them. It's funny but the sexist, shallow caricatures of men in my stories are based off of real people, heheh.

 

[Russ]

Yes, my issue is not with Lady Jessica being a wilting flower, it is with her perfectionism. She is no different than the women in Tolkien. Perfect, almost angelic, supernatural creatures. The princess Irulan is the same. We can argue that Princess Buttercup was no wilting flower either, but she was still inhumanly beautiful and a princess.

First off I should take a moment to say thanks to Helio for what a great question she posed and what a great thread this had turned out to be.

To understand why people are the way they are in Dune, I think you have to understand what the book is about at its core and what Herbert was writing about. To my mind Dune is about Messiah and the things that flow through it and from it. Lady Jessia is the mother of the Messiah, or Messiah to be and thus has to have certain characteristics, since she seems to be standing in for the Virgin Mary.

Dune is a highly symbolic work about large issues, not really one about ordinary people in any regard at all. You are right to say that there are no ordinary well developed women in Dune, but one should not expect to find them there.

 

[Annoyingkid]

Something that often comes up in association with this type of discussion is the question (often from male writers) of how to write good female characters. It's a bit of a can of worms to open up, but it may be interesting still. Why is it that so many male writers seem to think it's so difficult to write females, and why do they worry so about it?
Or is it just me seeing that, and has it changed - it's been a while since this came up last?

From what I've seen, the question has changed from how to write "good" female characters to "authentic".female characters.
They're more afraid of people saying "That's just a man with breasts!" than being accused of having a bad character. It carries unfortunate implications, as both male and female writers also get told their character is unrealistic because she didn't do x or y or didn't have z happen to her. There's a much higher standard of "realism" required for female characters before they're called Mary Sue, Man with Breasts, Sex Object, Unrealistic virginal heroine, Strong Female Character, and so on. While the only restriction with men is to not be too soft. Whereas women get criticized for being too soft too.

 

[Devor]

From what I've seen, the question has changed from how to write "good" female characters to "authentic".female characters.
They're more afraid of people saying "That's just a man with breasts!" than being accused of having a bad character. It carries unfortunate implications, as both male and female writers also get told their character is unrealistic because she didn't do x or y or didn't have z happen to her. There's a much higher standard of "realism" required for female characters before they're called Mary Sue, Man with Breasts, Sex Object, Unrealistic virginal heroine, Strong Female Character, and so on. While the only restriction with men is to not be too soft. Whereas women get criticized for being too soft too.

Female characters often get way over-analyzed, that's for sure.

 

[Heliotrope]

First off I should take a moment to say thanks to Helio for what a great question she posed and what a great thread this had turned out to be.

Thanks for this Russ I do get embarrassed about posing these controversial questions, especially when I am literally just "pissing in the wind" most of the time. I am the type that needs to think out loud, so often times I'm not even really sure where I stand on a certain issue and I like to have a variety of voices to help me explore an idea. I'm the type who is never satisfied with my own perspective. I always think "this is what I think, but I have a pretty limited world view, so maybe there are other ideas floating around?"

To understand why people are the way they are in Dune, I think you have to understand what the book is about at its core and what Herbert was writing about. To my mind Dune is about Messiah and the things that flow through it and from it. Lady Jessia is the mother of the Messiah, or Messiah to be and thus has to have certain characteristics, since she seems to be standing in for the Virgin Mary.

Yes, this makes perfect sense. The Virgin Mary character is such an interesting character, and one I would love to explore more. Have you read Untie the Strong Woman by Clarissa Pinkola Estes? (You, being a feminist may at least be familiar with her work?) She has another one on the wild woman archetype in fiction called Women Who Run With The Wolves. I love both, but Untie the Strong Woman really changed my view on Mary as a character. That has nothing to do with this conversation though, it was just a musing

You are right to say that there are no ordinary well developed women in Dune, but one should not expect to find them there.

Yes. Good point. I'm realizing this now.

 

[Russ]

Yes, this makes perfect sense. The Virgin Mary character is such an interesting character, and one I would love to explore more. Have you read Untie the Strong Woman by Clarissa Pinkola Estes? (You, being a feminist may at least be familiar with her work?) She has another one on the wild woman archetype in fiction called Women Who Run With The Wolves. I love both, but Untie the Strong Woman really changed my view on Mary as a character. That has nothing to do with this conversation though, it was just a musing

I am not familiar with her work, but I will be soon.

 

[TheCrystallineEntity]

<She has another one on the wild woman archetype in fiction called Women Who Run With The Wolves.>

I have that one!

 

[Dark Squiggle]

Funny. I found Women who run with the Wolves in the basement when I was about 12, and my mother took it from me as if it were something evil and forbade me to read it. I never saw a copy again and I still haven't read it. Is there something really offensive in there?

 

[Heliotrope]

No, not at all. That is weird.

 

[TheCrystallineEntity]

Indeed. I have no idea why anyone would forbid you to read it. Was female empowerment particularly offensive to your mother, if you don't mind me asking such a personal question?