Question about romance scene

[Rosemary Tea]

The thing is, even if in your story for whatever reason both characters can tell that the kiss is welcome, the idea is that you’re setting an example for the teens and preteens reading it that *they* too can *just tell* with their own relationships. We want to encourage healthy relationships where consent is more important than the lusty spontaneous sex appeal.

Exactly.

That said, imagining that another person knows exactly what you want without you having to tell them and gives it to you exactly as you want it is, I think, everyone's sexual fantasy, in one form or another. Which is why it's such a common romance trope. The kind of scene you wrote here is ubiquitous in bodice ripper novels... with the same lack of consent (although we all know she really wants it). No fault if you decided to write that way your first time out of the gate.

Perhaps it would help to approach it this way: what do you find hot about this scene? How might the element of mystery, and the part where he knows what she wants and gives it to her, work with explicit consent in the picture?

Another way around it, although it might not work so well if you intend this to be a YA novel, is to include a disclaimer, up front, that what you're writing is fantasy and not recommended in reality (insert plug for consent here). You'll see that kind of disclaimer with erotic stories online, especially if they involve kink. Arguably, him coming up to her masked and silent, getting her up against the wall, and caressing her without a word is a kink scene. But, if you take it in that direction, it's definitely not suitable YA fiction!

 

[Devor]

That said, imagining that another person knows exactly what you want without you having to tell them and gives it to you exactly as you want it is, I think, everyone's sexual fantasy, in one form or another.

This - more or less - was very much on my mind in writing the fanfic snippet I posted above. I wanted him to come across as aggressive and spontaneous without pressuring her in any way... so he does move aggressively, like he can't help himself, but only after she's consented to some kind of relationship, and he doesn't ask, but he does hesitate until she actually consents to the kiss. I think I achieved that mix of attraction and responsible, but even if not there are definitely ways to do it.

 

[ShadeZ]

Hello, I'm writing a fantasy novel. Main characters are 16 years old. I have a question about romance scenes. I'm writing a kissing scene with one of my 16 year olds and I'm wondering if it's appropriate to go into detail about how she's feeling, like getting aroused in detail or is that too far for the age? Or should I keep it more simple?

Also worth accounting for the fact she may or may not know what she is experiencing if she is that young since that is kind of the exploring age range.

 

[Rosemary Tea]

Also worth accounting for the fact she may or may not know what she is experiencing if she is that young since that is kind of the exploring age range.

Know what she's experiencing in what sense?

Anyone old enough to kiss knows when they're participating in a kiss. She would know what she's feeling. What she might or might not do is consider her feelings to be sexual feelings.

 

[ShadeZ]

Know what she's experiencing in what sense?

Anyone old enough to kiss knows when they're participating in a kiss. She would know what she's feeling. What she might or might not do is consider her feelings to be sexual feelings.

This is what I'm angling at. She may not understand why she is feeling that way, probably wouldn't know or associate the feelings as sexual in nature and definitely wouldnt (assuming her pov) use hyper technical terminology or such details. Also as another mentioned I would cater the details to your reader not to the characters too much.

 

[A. E. Lowan]

This is what I'm angling at. She may not understand why she is feeling that way, probably wouldn't know or associate the feelings as sexual in nature and definitely wouldnt (assuming her pov) use hyper technical terminology or such details. Also as another mentioned I would cater the details to your reader not to the characters too much.

As a former sexually active 16 year-old, I can tell you from experience that I knew exactly what I was feeling and why. And I liked it. But, to be fair, I was also well read and well educated in my own sexual development, and a lot of teens are not. It's going to depend on what sort of sexual mores are practiced in this fantasy world and how information about sex is disseminated. Do mothers tell their daughters to just close their eyes and do it for England, or are they well grounded in understanding their bodies and how to enjoy and celebrate them?

In our series we have two teens who are sexually experienced, one as a result of horrible abuse and one just beginning her sexual exploration with an older boyfriend. We don't go into much detail about either one's experiences, in part because they're both underage and we don't want to go into explicit descriptions. Maybe later, after they're a bit older. We don't have issues with other writers doing it, it's just not something we feel fits in well with the Books of Binding. Not to say that we don't depict sex when it moves the plot forward - I love writing sex - but these kids exist in a very adult world and we want to offer them a degree of privacy in this.

 

[The Dark One]

Referring back to the passage at #14, I would suggest the issue of vocal consent is clearly satisfied by Alyssa saying: 'I don't care if it's wrong.'

My only problem with the scene was her removing her veil AFTER drinking blood punch.

Ewww...that veil must be a total disaster. As for the bloody kissing...

 

[Rosemary Tea]

Referring back to the passage at #14, I would suggest the issue of vocal consent is clearly satisfied by Alyssa saying: 'I don't care if it's wrong.'

But that doesn't happen until after he's frightened her by approaching her in a mask without telling her who he is, backed her up against the wall, and caressed her (or pawed her, depending on how you see it). That part still isn't consensual in any way obvious to the reader.

It's not just the kiss that requires consent. It's all of it.

 

[The Dark One]

They're at a costume party. She's been staring at him all night so ought to know what he's wearing.

If I was his defense lawyer in a rape trial I'd be asking for the case to be thrown out as soon as her words were admitted into evidence.

 

[Rosemary Tea]

They're at a costume party. She's been staring at him all night so ought to know what he's wearing.

If I was his defense lawyer in a rape trial I'd be asking for the case to be thrown out as soon as her words were admitted into evidence.

We're not talking about what would hold up in court. This is about what should and should not be presented to YA readers as an example of how to do relationships. The standards for that are considerably higher.

 

[FifthView]

I just finished watching a reaction video on YouTube, someone watching Dead Poets Society for the first time. Actually, I'd been watching a few of those, because rabbit hole. But in the final reaction video, the reactor turned strongly against the character Knox when he started brushing his crush's hair while she was passed out in his lap at a party, especially when he then bent down to kiss her on the forehead. The reactor said, "No. Consent. Consent." and even put the word consent in writing over the scene when editing her reaction.

Two things. 1) That was something I'd never thought when I watched the movie, any of the 10 or 15 times I've seen the movie. Of course, the last time was many, many years ago. 2) The movie was set in 1959, and concerns about consent in such situations were not what they are now—or at least not in the same terms. Heck, the movie was made in 1989, and attitudes were different then than now for many people. Naturally, the character felt he was taking some kind of risk, we the viewers were also meant to feel that, and he was indeed hit by the girl's jock boyfriend for doing what he did. So there's that. That wrongness to the situation. But 3) (Okay, three things) characters sometimes do wrong things.

 

[MiaC]

Referring back to the passage at #14, I would suggest the issue of vocal consent is clearly satisfied by Alyssa saying: 'I don't care if it's wrong.'

My only problem with the scene was her removing her veil AFTER drinking blood punch.

Ewww...that veil must be a total disaster. As for the bloody kissing...

While I was writing it I forgot she had it on. Then fixed the bathroom part when she splashed water on her face with it on...then still messed up apparently lol. Dang

 

[Devor]

I just finished watching a reaction video on YouTube, someone watching Dead Poets Society for the first time. Actually, I'd been watching a few of those, because rabbit hole. But in the final reaction video, the reactor turned strongly against the character Knox when he started brushing his crush's hair while she was passed out in his lap at a party, especially when he then bent down to kiss her on the forehead. The reactor said, "No. Consent. Consent." and even put the word consent in writing over the scene when editing her reaction.

I don't even vaguely remember the movie, so I probably shouldn't comment on it. To me, with no other information, a kiss on the forehead seems too small to be upset about. But that's what audiences are paying attention to right now, and for good reason. It's a trend you're better off leaning into, I think. On other works I've seen comments like, "YES. Consent. Is. Sexy." So there is definitely a payoff inside that moment of consent, which you can develop with good effect.

But to opinionate a bit, that's an issue I have about "the advice" people give. We didn't used to see that moment of consent, at least in part, because people encourage stories with "tension." The surprise kiss is a big moment of romantic tension. And tension is great. But here's an example where we can build suspense in something besides tension. Here's where we have a payoff in that moment of trust. And I think the idea that there's something other than tension we can use to develop a payoff, I think that's a lesson people need to embrace in all of their writing, and not just romance. There's a lot of missed opportunity out there once you start to look in a different box than tension.

 

[The Dark One]

We're not talking about what would hold up in court. This is about what should and should not be presented to YA readers as an example of how to do relationships. The standards for that are considerably higher.

Fair enough.

I don't read YA so should probably refrain from commenting.

 

[FifthView]

In the case of that scene from Dead Poets Society, the tension comes from seeing this so-called "opportunity" fall into Knox's lap (almost literally) and knowing that he should not do it. At its root, his situation is precisely a test of impulse control—and he fails. Maybe it was only a kiss on the forehead, but the girl was passed out on his lap, and they had no prior romantic history together. Imagine "stealing a kiss"—a euphemism in situations like this—from an acquaintance who is not passed out, perhaps a coworker or social acquaintance at church or in the supermarket....Yeah, it would be cringe. I'm uncomfortable even accidentally brushing up against a coworker, so I can't even imagine how much worse an uninvited kiss might be.

I think that situation would be different than one in which both people have already been flirting, after multiple encounters, and the reader or viewer might reasonably have an expectation that the next step would be some physical representation of that growing attraction even if neither verbally agrees to it. A sudden kiss might be fine in that situation. Later in Dead Poets Society, after Knox and Chris have spent more time around one another, they are in a theater watching a play, side by side, and he reaches over and takes her hand. To me this seems fine. But this instance also caused that reviewer to cringe because she felt the previous occurrence, the kiss on the forehead, had been glossed over. (In other words, kissing a passed-out girl on the forehead is now "paying off," and it shouldn't. At least, this is my guess about her reaction.)

I do have a problem with blanket prescriptions/proscriptions concerning the issue of consent, although I also think context is king.

I don't even vaguely remember the movie, so I probably shouldn't comment on it. To me, with no other information, a kiss on the forehead seems too small to be upset about. But that's what audiences are paying attention to right now, and for good reason. It's a trend you're better off leaning into, I think. On other works I've seen comments like, "YES. Consent. Is. Sexy." So there is definitely a payoff inside that moment of consent, which you can develop with good effect.

But to opinionate a bit, that's an issue I have about "the advice" people give. We didn't used to see that moment of consent, at least in part, because people encourage stories with "tension." The surprise kiss is a big moment of romantic tension. And tension is great. But here's an example where we can build suspense in something besides tension. Here's where we have a payoff in that moment of trust. And I think the idea that there's something other than tension we can use to develop a payoff, I think that's a lesson people need to embrace in all of their writing, and not just romance. There's a lot of missed opportunity out there once you start to look in a different box than tension.

 

[Devor]

In the case of that scene from Dead Poets Society, the tension comes from seeing this so-called "opportunity" fall into Knox's lap (almost literally) and knowing that he should not do it. At its root, his situation is precisely a test of impulse control—and he fails. Maybe it was only a kiss on the forehead, but the girl was passed out on his lap, and they had no prior romantic history together.

. . . .

(In other words, kissing a passed-out girl on the forehead is now "paying off," and it shouldn't. At least, this is my guess about her reaction.)

There is one more thing I want to mention. Literary romance, literary justice, literary anything really, has always been a little different than real world romance and justice and so on. There's always been more emphasis on spontaneous emotional wish fulfillment, and less on things like etiquette and rights and fairness. In film for instance we see a bully say something mean, and then get slapped, and we agree with the slapper, when the rules and the laws do not.

People can react however they're inclined to a kiss on the forehead in a film. It doesn't mean I think people should go around putting their lips to sleeping girls everywhere. And, I'd be pretty soured if the reviewer in question thought that's what I meant by commenting on it. The directors took a very small moment of creative liberty, a touch of wish fulfillment on a romance they knew they were building, and it doesn't play as well with a lot of people today.

We should take fewer creative liberties when it comes to consent. I'm on board with that. But, let me enjoy my old movies without trying to make them realer than they were ever meant to be.

*edit to add*

To be more clear. What I meant by suggesting that, to me, a kiss on the forehead seems too small to be upset about.... I meant, too small of a creative liberty in film. There are a plenty of bigger moments in older film that I find hard to watch - in fact, there's quite a few that I found hard to watch for these very reasons even when they first came out (looking at you, American Pie).

 

[Rosemary Tea]

There is one more thing I want to mention. Literary romance, literary justice, literary anything really, has always been a little different than real world romance and justice and so on. There's always been more emphasis on spontaneous emotional wish fulfillment, and less on things like etiquette and rights and fairness. In film for instance we see a bully say something mean, and then get slapped, and we agree with the slapper, when the rules and the laws do not.

People can react however they're inclined to a kiss on the forehead in a film. It doesn't mean I think people should go around putting their lips to sleeping girls everywhere. And, I'd be pretty soured if the reviewer in question thought that's what I meant by commenting on it. The directors took a very small moment of creative liberty, a touch of wish fulfillment on a romance they knew they were building, and it doesn't play as well with a lot of people today.

We should take fewer creative liberties when it comes to consent. I'm on board with that. But, let me enjoy my old movies without trying to make them realer than they were ever meant to be.

*edit to add*

To be more clear. What I meant by suggesting that, to me, a kiss on the forehead seems too small to be upset about.... I meant, too small of a creative liberty in film. There are a plenty of bigger moments in older film that I find hard to watch - in fact, there's quite a few that I found hard to watch for these very reasons even when they first came out (looking at you, American Pie).

I think the real problem here is that teenagers and preteens are, even now, learning more about how to do romance from pop culture than from good real life examples. Yes, film and literature may present spontaneous emotional wish fulfillment to a degree that just doesn't happen in real life, but when that film and literature is targeting a very young audience, they usually don't have the level of real life experience they would need to discern the difference. Without good counter examples, there's a risk that many young people will come away thinking this is what you should do when you like someone. And that it's okay if someone does it to you, even if that makes you uncomfortable.

 

[Devor]

I think the real problem here is that teenagers and preteens are, even now, learning more about how to do romance from pop culture than from good real life examples.

Right, and I mentioned that before. And I mostly agree with that. I say mostly because there's some instances where I think people overstate the case. And I don't think people are choosing old movies as their model. But that's neither here nor there. We can do a better job of modelling consent and healthy relationships. It's easy enough. I was really happy to include clear consent in my ladybug fanfic, especially because the characters are set up as heroes and role models and directed at a younger audience. This was even more on my mind with how they handled a breakup scene.

Smughitter is directed at adults, and consent in that story works ....... exactly the same. Because #$%@, there's too many adults that need a better role model, too.

 

[Rosemary Tea]

Smughitter is directed at adults, and consent in that story works ....... exactly the same. Because #$%@, there's too many adults that need a better role model, too.

And too many adults who'd ignore the better role model even if they had it.

There's more hope for the youngsters. They're not so set in their ways.

 

[Steerpike]

I do have a problem with blanket prescriptions/proscriptions concerning the issue of consent, although I also think context is king.

Yes, context is everything. I also feel that children, teens, and young adults are more perceptive, intuitive, and more capable of understanding nuance, fiction v. reality, and the like, than we generally give them credit for. I believe the vast majority of young adult readers are able to pick up on consent issues and evaluate them properly, especially if the author gives the appropriate context. There will undoubtedly be some subset of readers who fail to take the correct/intended message, but then the question becomes to what extent do we tailor art to those least likely to receive it properly, out of concern that even a small number of people might take away the wrong message.