Redemption arcs

[pmmg]

I suspect part of it is, women dont have a long history of being MC's.

Some I can think of though...

The Evil Queen in Once upon a time
Wonder Woman -- She was banished from Themiscara
Xena (or was that more just atoning)
Ruth from the Bible
Mary Magdeline as well.
Guinevere (depending on which rendition you chose)
Jean Grey/Dark Phoenix (which as about the only xmen story that matters)
Faith from Buffy....


They are out there.

 

[Fyri]

I don’t think you have to have started out as the ‘villain’ to have a redemption arc - if that is your line of thought here - as with any traverse through life, an individual might end up falling foul of what is considered ‘good’ and then end up seeking redemption.

Scrooge is a good example of a redemption arc that shows he wasn’t ’born bad’. As a child he was basically neglected, so he rejected any idea of family or of good cheer at Christmas time because he went through what we would describe probably today as a traumatic childhood. He had the capacity to be redeemed, and again it is a very Christian idea, redemption in itself, and A Christmas Carol is a perfect example of this ideal.

True! XD I think I just wanted to see more of characters that had to climb a long and difficult ladder to become a person that does the "right thing" [again].

You mention Christianity and I guess one of my favorite people there is Paul from the New Testament. So, perhaps I was looking for more of a "villain to hero" arc. XD

There are scant amounts of female character redemption arcs in fantasy (wouldn’t know about SF) perhaps there is a plethora of reasons for that? Nesta from ACOTAR comes to mind, she would probably qualify, but I can’t think of any other definitive ones.

Maybe female characters tend to be written more as inherently good or evil with little room for ambiguity in terms of a redemption arc.

OMGOSH. I HADN’T THOUGHT OF THIS. I know Azula from Avatar was meant to have a redemption arc and maybe does in the comics that I still need to read.

I love this observation. Wow!

 

[Fyri]

Personally I love redemption arcs but I agree with Finchbearer that its almost always male characters who are afforded such. Female characters of a darker disposition generally don't get any such chance which sounds like a challenge and encouragment to write such.

Shouldn't be a challenge per se, but definitely something to be encouraged, I think!

 

[pmmg]

Interesting. I don’t know enough about Star Wars to know his redemption. All I really know is his beginnings.

I dont know how you can be in the conversation if you dont know Vader's story. I think you have some homework to do.

The prequel movies are about the fall of Anakin...You can skip those. The original three are about the redemption of Darth Vader.

I suspect you will find, if you ask this question around, there will be a generational gap in the answers. Those who grew up with HP might point to Zuko, and those before to Darth Vader.

You know.... Perhaps the greatest story of redemption is the story of mankind in the bible, from the fall in the garden to the sacrifice of Christ on the cross. And in the stories that make up the bible (and other works) are full of characters with redemptive stories. Sampson, David, Solomon, Jonah, Moses, Peter and Paul...

Oh, and Judas...his is a conundrum. Was he saved or not?

Other stories of redemption.

Hercules/Heracles
Arthur
Hodr (Norse Mythology)
Thor (as marvel play him)
Loki too (for Marvel)

Oh and Hawk Girl (Justice League ) And Ashe from Samurai Jack...

(Actually...I just trying to get all the stories in my brain sorted and why? these are enough).



But who can say which is the best. That will always remain a tad on the subjective side.


Thinking on thise more, dont all the characters in the Marvel movies have redemption Arcs? I think they all do. Maybe not Hawkeye, cause who cares.

Oh, I am forgetting Nebula. She was the best character in the whole series. Strong redemption arc for her.

And might I add Furiosa from Mad Max?


Jeez...I also forgot Ben Hur.

 

[Finchbearer]

I dont know how you can be in the conversation if you dont know Vader's story. I think you have some homework to do.

I don’t know anything about Star Wars really, I’m not interested in SF. I don’t know anything about Avatar either to be honest.

 

[pmmg]

I also forgot Mr. Snape. But....not really a candidate for the best, IMO.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

It's a short redemption arc, but enough that I own the signed animation cell of Boromir dying from the Ralph Bakshi Lord of the Rings.

Can't agree with this one since he didn't really take a villain role so much as fell weak to the Ring's influence for a moment. He was always on the protagonist side though. Beautiful redemption development, yes, but not so intense as others. Hmm. Though, seeing many others agreeing with it, I am reconsidering my thoughts on this. I guess it is technically still a redemption arc. I was just expecting responses with longer journeys toward change/healing/atonement.

Idk what I intended with this topic. Maybe just to talk about people with redemption arcs in general, really. My ADHD impulse made me post without a strong thought process.


Wait. He redeems himself??

Edit: I had to refresh my brain on his developments. I vaguely remember this. Jaime is an interesting character of note to me, actually because he relapses and shows more of a failed redemption arc. That sometimes people can try to change, fail, and not try again. As much as I hate Game of Thrones for it's depressing worldview, I do really appreciate the representation of this reality.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Jaime Lannister... I have to reserve judgment for the books, the HBO ending doesn't count. Awesome character and I love the actor, but I have to put it on the wait and see list.

 

[Fyri]

I also forgot Mr. Snape. But....not really a candidate for the best, IMO.

Lol, ew.

 

[Fyri]

I dont know how you can be in the conversation if you dont know Vader's story. I think you have some homework to do.

Wow, rude. I could say the same about you and not getting to Zuko's big scenes! I grew up around Star Wars, but it never interested me enough to watch them all. I only really enjoyed Revenge of the Sith.

Oh, I am forgetting Nebula. She was the best character in the whole series. Strong redemption arc for her.

Oooh! Nebula is a good one!!

 

[Fyri]

I don’t know anything about Star Wars really, I’m not interested in SF. I don’t know anything about Avatar either to be honest.

To be fair, Star Wars is actually more like the fantasy companion to SciFi Star Trek. It may be set in space and have aliens, but it is more fantasy based!

 

[Devor]

Nobody's mentioned Catra, from She-Ra, yet, although ... while her villain arc is amazing, her redemption arc is very abrupt and unsatisfying.

With the exception of Zuko, I think most villain redemption arcs are poorly done. There were some things that really worked with Zuko, though.

First, he'd put the time in. He travelled the earth kingdom, and while he hadn't reformed yet, he did get to know people, and relate to them. We got to see his empathetic side grow over time instead of appear out of nowhere when the story calls for it.

Second, he reformed when he was riding high, and had a chance to realize who he was, not in the middle of some action scene, or when he was swallowed in desperation - in fact, desperation is what made him a villain. When he came into his own, he decided not to be one, and that's very human, and very commendable.

Finally, when he switches sides, Katara - you know, the sweet one - seriously and directly promises to murder him if he acts up. And he goes on to have these mini-adventures where he kind of atones with each of the characters he's spent so much time hurting. They don't just accept him. He has to keep putting in the work.

I can't think of another villain redemption arc that hits even one of these points, let alone all three. (On second thought, Nebula does do a lot of this, too.)

 

[pmmg]

I could say the same about you and not getting to Zuko's big scenes!

Well, you could, but you would be mistaken as to what I have and have not seen. Homework goes with the territory of being a writer. Some stories you just need to know. That's what air bender is to me, homework. I even saw his crappy movie, which I think may be the worst film I've ever seen.

But to have a conversation about who has the best, and to not even know about the biggest one of the last 50 years.... I will just leave it there.

Zuko had a good story, and maybe in some sort of poll he would prevail. But who can trust polls? Vader's story also has many flaws, but redeemed, he was. I saw his ghost next to yoda.

And I do apologize. I took it as you were saying Zoku had the best, but you were instead asking who had a better one. Vader....watch the movies (the good ones), come back and tell me I'm wrong. Then we can converse


(And along those lines, I did see Kiki's delivery service last night....Why? to be in the conversation...or homework.)

Great redemption story. She failed at delivery, offered up her cat, and then made it right

 

[Finchbearer]

To be fair, Star Wars is actually more like the fantasy companion to SciFi Star Trek. It may be set in space and have aliens, but it is more fantasy based!

I mean I’ve watched a few films but ask me about it and I couldn’t tell you a thing and I actually prefer Star Trek if we’re comparing, although I can’t say I’m into SF.

 

[Queshire]

Well, you could, but you would be mistaken as to what I have and have not seen. Homework goes with the territory of being a writer. Some stories you just need to know. That's what air bender is to me, homework. I even saw his crappy movie, which I think may be the worst film I've ever seen.

But to have a conversation about who has the best, and to not even know about the biggest one of the last 50 years.... I will just leave it there.

Zuko had a good story, and maybe in some sort of poll he would prevail. But who can trust polls? Vader's story also has many flaws, but redeemed, he was. I saw his ghost next to yoda.

And I do apologize. I took it as you were saying Zoku had the best, but you were instead asking who had a better one. Vader....watch the movies (the good ones), come back and tell me I'm wrong. Then we can converse


(And along those lines, I did see Kiki's delivery service last night....Why? to be in the conversation...or homework.)

Great redemption story. She failed at delivery, offered up her cat, and then made it right

Sure. You're wrong.

Vader's redemption is limited to the tail end of one movie and ends with his death. Sure, part of that comes down to the time restraints of working in movies, but in talking about pure story quality I don't see how it can compare to how Zuko's entire character development is devoted to his various struggles, falls and ultimate redemption.

Nobody's mentioned Catra, from She-Ra, yet, although ... while her villain arc is amazing, her redemption arc is very abrupt and unsatisfying.

With the exception of Zuko, I think most villain redemption arcs are poorly done. There were some things that really worked with Zuko, though.

First, he'd put the time in. He travelled the earth kingdom, and while he hadn't reformed yet, he did get to know people, and relate to them. We got to see his empathetic side grow over time instead of appear out of nowhere when the story calls for it.

Second, he reformed when he was riding high, and had a chance to realize who he was, not in the middle of some action scene, or when he was swallowed in desperation - in fact, desperation is what made him a villain. When he came into his own, he decided not to be one, and that's very human, and very commendable.

Finally, when he switches sides, Katara - you know, the sweet one - seriously and directly promises to murder him if he acts up. And he goes on to have these mini-adventures where he kind of atones with each of the characters he's spent so much time hurting. They don't just accept him. He has to keep putting in the work.

I can't think of another villain redemption arc that hits even one of these points, let alone all three. (On second thought, Nebula does do a lot of this, too.)

I liked how they had Catra get worse before she gets better, but when it comes to redemption arcs in She-Ra I think how Shadow Weaver turns things on its head is more interesting.

 

[Devor]

Vader....watch the movies (the good ones), come back and tell me I'm wrong. Then we can converse

You know . . . I'll bite.

It's Luke's arc, pushing for Vader's redemption, that is great. Vader's side of the redemption arc was pretty weak. He saw the emperor about to kill his son, and then changed his mind, dying to save his son. It was awesome, but it wasn't Vader's arc that's paying off. It's Luke's. We don't really get to see what Vader's going through leading up to this point. Instead, what we're seeing is Luke's faith in his father's goodness coming to bear fruit.

But if I'm writing a story of a villain, who's trying seek redemption, Vader's a terrible example. It doesn't tell me what to do for a character that doesn't have Luke pushing him - or even one who does, frankly, because we're never in Vader's head. Nor does he put in the work, to atone, either before or after that moment.

Again, in short, what we're seeing is a "having faith in the goodness even of a villain" arc. Not "a villain seeking redemption" arc.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

I have no idea who Zuko is, and all I have to hear is Airbender to know I don't care, but I'll still entertain the potential for a great redemption arc. But, it will always be an opinion based an awful lot on the work's popularity or an individual's fandom. A big moment of sacrificing one's life is also going to be key to a great redemption arc in a lot of people's eyes.

 

[Fyri]

Well, you could, but you would be mistaken as to what I have and have not seen. Homework goes with the territory of being a writer. Some stories you just need to know. That's what air bender is to me, homework. I even saw his crappy movie, which I think may be the worst film I've ever seen.

I don't think this is necessarily true. Homework is important, but it is a dangerous road to say "You must read/know X story to be a writer." I'm paraphrasing and perhaps exaggerating a little the "Some stories you just need to know" but the essence of it is still there. It's a tad demeaning and disheartening (and a liiittle gatekeep-y) to see. I'm not writing a space opera. My characters and plot have other places of inspiration and study.

And I do apologize. I took it as you were saying Zuko had the best, but you were instead asking who had a better one. Vader....watch the movies (the good ones), come back and tell me I'm wrong. Then we can converse

I also apologize. As I said, my ADHD brain had the impulse to post something about this and it was half baked before I hit "create thread," and promptly went to work thinking, "Mmm, crap. Too late to delete that half-baked idea."

From all the circles I've been in, writers, lit agents, and nonwriters generally agreed that Zuko has the best/strongest redemption arc, so that's the mindset I was coming in with, wanting to celebrate, discuss, and learn about others as strong as his. I should not have assumed everyone here was a fan!

(And along those lines, I did see Kiki's delivery service last night....Why? to be in the conversation...or homework.)

Great redemption story. She failed at delivery, offered up her cat, and then made it right

Omgosh, did you like it?!

 

[Demesnedenoir]

Well, there's no rule to an event being the culmination of a single arc. By itself, the Vader Redemption is shallow, BUT, it is at the climax of the trilogy, while fulfilling Luke's faith in there still being good in Vader. A conjunction of three major points, and that's what makes the Vader scene iconic and powerful in the sense of "Storytelling" even if you don't like the Star Wars movies. That point is a bit like Silence of the Lambs... even if you don't enjoy the book or movie (and it's tricky to find a movie that follows its book closer) the story and structure are superb.

Boromir's redemption is also more than redemption. Boromir represents the two faces of humankind. He is, on the one hand, weak and failing to temptation, and in a matter of a few minutes, capable of sacrificing himself to save others. That is Humanity's potential captured in a short span of time.

Nobody's mentioned Catra, from She-Ra, yet, although ... while her villain arc is amazing, her redemption arc is very abrupt and unsatisfying.

With the exception of Zuko, I think most villain redemption arcs are poorly done. There were some things that really worked with Zuko, though.

First, he'd put the time in. He travelled the earth kingdom, and while he hadn't reformed yet, he did get to know people, and relate to them. We got to see his empathetic side grow over time instead of appear out of nowhere when the story calls for it.

Second, he reformed when he was riding high, and had a chance to realize who he was, not in the middle of some action scene, or when he was swallowed in desperation - in fact, desperation is what made him a villain. When he came into his own, he decided not to be one, and that's very human, and very commendable.

Finally, when he switches sides, Katara - you know, the sweet one - seriously and directly promises to murder him if he acts up. And he goes on to have these mini-adventures where he kind of atones with each of the characters he's spent so much time hurting. They don't just accept him. He has to keep putting in the work.

I can't think of another villain redemption arc that hits even one of these points, let alone all three. (On second thought, Nebula does do a lot of this, too.)

 

[Fyri]

In a little bit of refreshing my mind on what I know and learning some things about what I may not have seen, I found this take, which is interesting to note.

"Vader might not be fully redeemed from years of murders and war crimes, but he is redeemed in his estranged son's eyes."

I also stumbled upon the last scene and do remember bits of it from years ago. Perhaps it struck me less only because I was younger then and also it wasn't a full character redemption? Idk. It is super powerful though!

Boromir's redemption is also more than redemption. Boromir represents the two faces of humankind. He is, on the one hand, weak and failing to temptation, and in a matter of a few minutes, capable of sacrificing himself to save others. That is Humanity's potential captured in a short span of time.

Mmm. Thanks for reminding me what I love about Tolkien. <3

I also just realized, for movies, Megamind is a good one!