Redemption

[Steerpike]

To me, all redemption requires is inner change--becoming the sort of person who won't do the things you did before. Atonement and sacrifice are things that may flow naturally from that change, but that depends on exactly what you changed to and from.

Incidentally, I'm a big fan of Superior, a manga about the gradual redemption of a genocidal mass murderer. I think it's a little too soft in parts--change shouldn't be quite this easy--but overall, it does pretty well at documenting a journey from villain to hero.

Yes, I could see that working. I think, as you said, the main problem would be being subject to a charge that it's too easy. For a genocidal murderer you'd have to have a very convincing and, in my view, long transition process.

 

[Chilari]

I'm sick of the cheap redemption you occasionally get in (generally) stories aimed at younger audiences. Someone's done this horrible thing (generally off screen) that doesn't quite amount to murder but when you think about it it's pretty bad. Then this guy turns on his former master, helps the good guys, and suddenly he's a good guy too. Oh, there'll be one character who doesn't trust him - for a while, but then he proves he's good now and it's all fine and dandy.

And I am sick of the redemption through death thing. Guy does something bad, gets kicked out of the Good Guy Club House, dies protecting them later. Or bad guy tries to do good, good guys don't accept him, he dies trying to prove himself.

It cheats the reader of conflict, tries to make them feel sorry for this apparently redeemed character so when they die it tugs on the heartstrings. No. Just no, seriously.

I want to see a character truly face what they have done wrong. Face it and understand it, see the harm it has done to people, live the harm it has done to people even. Even if they work with the good guys, I want them not to be forgiven the bad because they did some good. If the good guys are determined to do things right, then that means trials and that means the bad guy who switched sides to help them (even if the good he's done is taken into account in this trial, if the good guys want it all above board, the trial should exist even if he's acquitted because his help was invaluable in bringing down the Big Bad, unless he's previously negotiated to avoid all that). I want characters ending up in prison and paying for their crimes properly, or whatever appropriate punishment there is within the culture.

Why? Because it's what's right. And because it can create further conflict. Character realises he's going to trial, he runs away before everything goes down and his absence throws the big plan off. Or he doesn't and gets arrested afterward, and feels betrayed by the hero, swearing revenge. Or he goes to trial and gets off because of all his help, but this creates major conflict between him and some guy whose cousin twice removed died as a result of his actions, throwing off some big plan later on because they don't play nice together.

 

[Anders Ämting]

I don't.
Some crimes are so enormous they cannot be redeemed by any new act. What could redeem a dictator or a warlord with the blood of millions on his hands? No human life is long enough to atone for all the suffering.

So keep the sins in proportion. Wilfully murdering a village full of innocents is redeemable. Wilfully murdering hundreds of villages is not.

So, what? You wouldn't forgive a mass murderer no matter what he did to make up for it, no matter how much he regretted it, and no matter how honestly good and benevolent he ended up being afterwards?

Well, you know what? That's fine. You don't have to.

Because, again, forgiveness is an act of mercy. It's not a fair trade or a mathematical equation. Forgiveness isn't something you have to deserve, or buy back in equivalent exchange for your sins. Nor is it something one is required to give to others if certain conditions are met. It is a gift you freely bestow on others even if you have every right to refuse.

 

[Graylorne]

So, what? You wouldn't forgive a mass murderer no matter what he did to make up for it, no matter how much he regretted it, and no matter how honestly good and benevolent he ended up being afterwards?

Well, you know what? That's fine. You don't have to.

Because, again, forgiveness is an act of mercy. It's not a fair trade or a mathematical equation. Forgiveness isn't something you have to deserve, or buy back in equivalent exchange for your sins. Nor is it something one is required to give to others if certain conditions are met. It is a gift you freely bestow on others even if you have every right to refuse.

Of course. What I in my original post reacted against, was the thought of an universal right to redemption. It can be a gift, but never a right.

 

[Feo Takahari]

Of course. What I in my original post reacted against, was the thought of an universal right to redemption. It can be a gift, but never a right.

Are forgiveness and redemption really connected? That is to say, can someone still be redeemed even if no one ever forgives them for what they've done? (I know someone can be forgiven who hasn't truly been redeemed.) Personally, I wouldn't classify redemption as a gift or a right, but a capability.

(I realize I'm a bit skew from most people on this stuff--I'm operating on very unusual premises. They're complicated and arguably off-topic, though, so if anyone's curious, I'll leave them to PMs.)

 

[wordwalker]

Are forgiveness and redemption really connected? That is to say, can someone still be redeemed even if no one ever forgives them for what they've done? (I know someone can be forgiven who hasn't truly been redeemed.)

Good point. I see two answers:

• Unresolvable, it's a classic form of "whose opinion matters?" and will always have disagreements
• They're redeemed if the reader forgives them

 

[brokethepoint]

When you look at redemption you need to look at several things, conversion, atonement and forgiveness.

Conversion - then understanding what you did was wrong and making the decision to not do it any more

atonement - making amends or reparations for the wrongs

forgiveness - the act of those you have wronged ceasing to hold resentment or blame


Once you put these in a non religious context, based on the wrongs, you need to be able to explain in a convincing and believable way how atonement can be made. If forgiveness is desired then you must explain why they would forgive the person.


If someone wipes out an entire village where my family lived and there is no religion involved, how could someone make atonement to me and why would I even consider forgiving them. These are the things you must resolve, because atonement isn't just doing good will counter the bad that I did, atonement is to those that were wronged.

I am not saying that redemption can't be done without religion, I believe it just makes it more difficult. With or without religion it still has many factors involved, motive, mental state, personality, and the magnitude of the wrong to just name a few.

 

[BWFoster78]

If someone wipes out an entire village where my family lived and there is no religion involved, how could someone make atonement to me and why would I even consider forgiving them.

Not saying that religion isn't a better path to go, but the concept that forgiveness helps the victim is a popular one and provides a credible reason for allowing atonement.

 

[brokethepoint]

Not saying that religion isn't a better path to go, but the concept that forgiveness helps the victim is a popular one and provides a credible reason for allowing atonement.

I agree, which is why I said there are many other factors involved. I also know that I hear, "I will never forgive them/him/her." way too often.

I just hate books where you go why did the MC do this or, that was just not what they would have done. If you are going to do something like this show my why, make me believe, show the struggle and turmoil involved. I want to understand why and believe it.

 

[BWFoster78]

I just hate books where you go why did the MC do this or, that was just not what they would have done.

I understand the need for explanation, but I'd rather there not be overexplanation.

People react in a large range of ways. Take a hundred people and independently expose them to the same stimulus. I'm not sure you'd get 100 different reactions, but the set would be widely varied.

 

[Rullenzar]

There are many ways to redemption but my favorite of them is Sacrifice. You have so many different ways to take this. Death is the most popular because it has the biggest reaction. However, things such as donating organs to save someones life or sacrificing your way of thinking to make someone happy can be just as powerful.