Redemption arcs

[pmmg]

You know . . . I'll bite.

It's Luke's arc, pushing for Vader's redemption, that is great. Vader's side of the redemption arc was pretty weak. He saw the emperor about to kill his son, and then changed his mind, dying to save his son. It was awesome, but it wasn't Vader's arc that's paying off. It's Luke's. We don't really get to see what Vader's going through leading up to this point. Instead, what we're seeing is Luke's faith in his father's goodness coming to bear fruit.

But if I'm writing a story of a villain, who's trying seek redemption, Vader's a terrible example. It doesn't tell me what to do for a character that doesn't have Luke pushing him - or even one who does, frankly, because we're never in Vader's head. Nor does he put in the work, to atone, either before or after that moment.

Again, in short, what we're seeing is a "having faith in the goodness even of a villain" arc. Not "a villain seeking redemption" arc.

And there in lies the complexity of the whole character, cause Luke's faith means nothing, if its not already inside of Vader to pull at it. The culmination is not just for the sake of Luke, it is also for the sake of himself. He left behind his wickedness, and moved to his better (truer) self. One, in fact, even those who knew him did not believe was there. The Redemption of Darth Vader was a true redemption. He had fully embraced the dark side, and abandoned it for the sake of others. It was a true choice to abandon evil, and embrace good. If he did not do this, the Empire would not have lost.

And because he did it, even though we dont get his inner workings, we do walk away with the type of questions that movies are made for. What was the story of Darth Vader, and what really moved inside of him. Speculation on that has spawned another thousand stories. The depths of it are still elusive and profound. It is not a road map. You cant take it and say here is my template. But it does hit on a something powerful in us all. That even those as evil as Darth Vader can find redemption.

Zoku, in contrast was never fully embracing of the dark side. His story is longer and we see more scenes of him slowly shifting, but his redemption as not as true. He was never completely dark. He was just a kid who did not know any better and grows up.

 

[pmmg]

Doc ock in spiderman 2 is another.

 

[Queshire]

Oh sure, in the abstract the idea of someone turning away from the darkest evil is great, but that's all Vedar's story is. Abstract.

The audience knows what it's like to struggle and at times fail at what they think it means to be a good person. Even if the kids who originally watched the show don't then the adults they grow into will. Zuko's story resonates better and is more useful for the audience than Vedar's.

 

[Finchbearer]

The audience knows what it's like to struggle and at times fail at what they think it means to be a good person. Even if the kids who originally watched the show don't then the adults they grow into will. Zuko's story resonates better and is more useful for the audience than Vedar's.

I feel like this is also about age appropriateness - Avatar probably resonates with a younger demographic in terms of any coming of age themes, whereas Star Wars explores something that might resonate with an older crowd. It’s not that a wide age range can’t enjoy both those franchises, but getting something to resonate with someone is probably also about what stage they are at in life too.

It’s like Catcher in the Rye, that resonated with me when I was a teenager, now as an adult all I read is a whiny brat…

If I was a Hobbit then I’d be at the coming of age stage in my life at 33 but that’s by the by that ship has now sailed and whilst I might enjoy a story that has been intended for a younger crowd it might not resonate with me.

 

[Fyri]

I feel like this is also about age appropriateness - Avatar probably resonates with a younger demographic in terms of any coming of age themes, whereas Star Wars explores something that might resonate with an older crowd. It’s not that a wide age range can’t enjoy both those franchises, but getting something to resonate with someone is probably also about what stage they are at in life too.

It’s like Catcher in the Rye, that resonated with me when I was a teenager, now as an adult all I read is a whiny brat…

If I was a Hobbit then I’d be at the coming of age stage in my life at 33 but that’s by the by that ship has now sailed and whilst I might enjoy a story that has been intended for a younger crowd it might not resonate with me.

My dad is over 50 and chooses Avatar every time. He may not remember all the characters' names well, but he cries every time we get that late late scene of Iroh hugging Zuko. Oh, he knows Star Wars well, but I'm betting he would also pick Zuko's redemption over Vader, though I'm sure it would be hard.

Perhaps they are indeed different categories, though. Plus, we have personal biases. If you didn’t connect with one story, you'll be less inclined to see character developments as strong as another. I think an objective comparison can be made, though.

For me, I guess it goes more into have you really done the work and maintained it? For example, the Evil Queen in Once Upon a Time angers me to no end because sure, she redeems herself, but constantly falls back into evil every time. It makes me believe her attempts for redemption less. Sure, there is the Christian belief that you must forgive your brother "7×7" times, but where story is concerned, I guess it would also be a different category. Darth Vader does die in redeeming himself, which others mentioned changes the narrative. Zuko lives and goes on to be an excellent Fire Lord--we don't get to see that chance for Vader.

Leaving it up to speculation and fanfictions doesn't exactly help though.
Anyone can speculate something deeper in a character. It's different to see that complexity fully written and knowable in the actual product and canon.

Though, I will concede in saying perhaps their written journeys are on equal ground.

Perhaps interestingly, I do have a character who is a murderer and sides with the antagonist for most of my series, but changes in the final fight when he is told to kill his son. He helps the heros survive and win. But! I don't view him as redeemed yet. I plan a sequel series that also shows his struggle to redeem himself to not only his son, but also his people and the heros whom he caused a lot of damage to. Perhaps a mixture of Vader and Zuko, actually.

 

[Finchbearer]

I’m not sure I know anyone who is actively into Avatar honestly - but I do know plenty of Star Wars fans. From my perspective I always thought Avatar was intended for a younger audience. But, seeing as your dad is the spokesperson for all the over 50’s I’ll take your word for it!

What is once upon a time and who is the evil queen?? Have I missed something?

 

[Queshire]

Well, I mean, someone who was 13 when Avatar first came out would be 31 now.

 

[pmmg]

I’m not sure I know anyone who is actively into Avatar honestly - but I do know plenty of Star Wars fans. From my perspective I always thought Avatar was intended for a younger audience. But, seeing as your dad is the spokesperson for all the over 50’s I’ll take your word for it!

What is once upon a time and who is the evil queen?? Have I missed something?

I forget where it aired. It was telling a fairy tale story with a lot of the Disney villains and characters. It was all the rage for a little while. Its not bad. Lot of good characters in it. Kind of for women though. (actually, it might not have been disney who made it.)

The Evil Queen from Snow White tried to give up her evil ways and be good. She was a favorite character. Though...in my house, it was Capt Hook and Rumplestiltskin that got the most attention.

The concept is kind of, there is a rift between the real world and the fariytale world, and all the characters have lives in both. So, the queen has a fairy tale version, and a real world version. And when they start to merge, she becomes less evil.


Prob didn't get to the UK.

 

[Finchbearer]

I forget where it aired. It was telling a fairy tale story with a lot of the Disney villains and characters. It was all the rage for a little while. Its not bad. Lot of good characters in it. Kind of for women though. (actually, it might not have been disney who made it.)

The Evil Queen from Snow White tried to give up her evil ways and be good. She was a favorite character. Though...in my house, it was Capt Hook and Rumplestiltskin that got the most attention.

The concept is kind of, there is a rift between the real world and the fariytale world, and all the characters have lives in both. So, the queen has a fairy tale version, and a real world version. And when they start to merge, she becomes less evil.


Prob didn't get to the UK.

It sounds a bit like Dickensian.

 

[pmmg]

It sounds a bit like Dickensian.

Yep...they seem similar. Maybe one inspired the other.

If you need a show to watch, It worth looking up. Once upon a time. Specially for the Queen.

 

[Fyri]

Once Upon a Time is loved by many, but I couldn’t stand it. I only held on because Rumplestiltskin's character was really interesting, until they made him fall into the same basic problem of the Evil Queen. "I'm evil. No wait. I'm good now. Jk. Evil again. Okay. Now, I'm good. Ooh, but what if? Evil?" And I don’t mean they were gray. They were pendulums stuck swinging back and forth and I got bored and frustrated with the writing. Everyone felt so shallow and just did things for the plot...

If you want to watch it, I'd give a warning about the first season. Try to get into season 2 to see if the rest is worth your time.

Disney is the maker, in fact! That's why they are able to use so many Disney characters--like Elsa and Merida in later seasons.

 

[Fyri]

Though...in my house, it was Capt Hook and Rumplestiltskin that got the most attention.

Omgosh, one of my friends was obsessed with Hook. Actually, maybe two of them. Guess I needed to be heterosexual to get it.

 

[The Dark One]

Boromir is good too. He died just at the time I was really liking him.

You really liked Boromir just as he tried to take the ring from Frodo? Interesting take...

As a person who's read TLOTR about 90 times, Boromir is one of my favourite characters - mainly because he's so human and has some actual complexity to him, unlike like most of the good characters who are one dimensional ciphers. Also love Gollum for that reason. The hobbits are all smug - Gandalf is insufferably arrogant - Aragorn ceases to be interesting after they arrive at Rivendell.

Don't get me wrong - it's a work of genius and I love it to bits - but the real genius is in the story and the world building. A further indication of my feelings is explicable in the names of my cats over the years: Sauron, Shelob, Grishnakh, Shagrat...

As for redemptive story arcs, my most successful novel includes such a thing. But it's not obvious and needs some reflection. Many readers have been amazed they missed it when I pointed out what had actually happened.

 

[Finchbearer]

Wait…Rumplestiltskin was played by Robert Carlisle

 

[Fyri]

Wait…Rumplestiltskin was played by Robert Carlisle

Literally the only reason I was okay with starting to watch the series was because I had seen glimpses of later scenes with him. I never knew him before, but dang, he is a great actor.

 

[Finchbearer]

Literally the only reason I was okay with starting to watch the series was because I had seen glimpses of later scenes with him. I never knew him before, but dang, he is a great actor.

I would say certainly he is - he has that Rumplestiltskin look I suppose! Does he have a Scottish accent in it??

 

[Fyri]

You really liked Boromir just as he tried to take the ring from Frodo? Interesting take...

As a person who's read TLOTR about 90 times, Boromir is one of my favourite characters - mainly because he's so human and has some actual complexity to him, unlike like most of the good characters who are one dimensional ciphers. Also love Gollum for that reason. The hobbits are all smug - Gandalf is insufferably arrogant - Aragorn ceases to be interesting after they arrive at Rivendell.

Don't get me wrong - it's a work of genius and I love it to bits - but the real genius is in the story and the world building. A further indication of my feelings is explicable in the names of my cats over the years: Sauron, Shelob, Grishnakh, Shagrat...

As for redemptive story arcs, my most successful novel includes such a thing. But it's not obvious and needs some reflection. Many readers have been amazed they missed it when I pointed out what had actually happened.

Now I'm curious about your novel!

 

[The Dark One]

Now I'm curious about your novel!

Thanks. You can read the early chapters for free on some sites. Straight Jacket

It's not fantasy though.

 

[Fyri]

I would say certainly he is - he has that Rumplestiltskin look I suppose! Does he have a Scottish accent in it??

Oh! I missed this! He does, if I remember correctly! I think because his character has several versions, he may have different accents too sometimes? Can't remember.