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Sheilawisz's First Law

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
I don’t think that both sides in battles need to have the same magical powers but I agree with the assumption that a certain amount of balance is necessary to make the story interesting.

I think it's okay if the good guys are outmatched, but not if that's going to be resolved at the push of a button. The resolution has to go through enough of a process to give the conflict legitimacy.


One thing certainly applies though: If a magic user is able to form perfect shields against swords, arrows and everything else his enemies are using against him, seeing him in battle isn’t interesting. Such characters actually do require opponents who can counter this and harm them despite of it.

I feel tempted to create such a character just so I can have a lowly peasant tear him down for you.
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
I like the world of Conan, where you have wizards who can wield powerful magic, and yet an angry barbarian can take them out under the right circumstances.
 

Sheilawisz

Queen of Titania
Moderator
From what can be seen in the chapter The Other Minister from the start of the 6th book of the series, it's clear that the top leaders of the Muggle world have certain knowledge about the Wizarding world... but this knowledge is limited to what they need to know, and they have no clue about the location of places like Hogwarts or the headquarters of the different Wizarding governments.

I have no doubt that some numbers of Wizards would get killed in the battles, but our world is far more fragile and vulnerable than most people like to accept: Casting in secret some kind of curses to magically ruin the crops worldwide would cause starvation, panic and violence very soon, and if they target the Muggle world's electrical system, then our society would come crashing down in a few months before they attack!!

This is the plan that I would design, if I were a dark Witch coordinating the war:

1- Send thousands of dark wizards with dissilusionment charms to curse the crops all over the world- This could take months, but when it is complete the Muggles will start losing all the harvests having no clue of what is happening. Soon, the food reserves would be depleted, prices would rise and there would be violence and panic: Muggle society starts to collapse.

2- While the Muggles are trying to find a way to deal with the lack of harvests, the first wave of the attack starts: Wizards apparate directly into Muggle power plants starting fires and explosions, while others attack the power lines. The Muggle world is thrown back to the 18th Century, and this means no factories working, no water in the cities, limited medical care in the hospitals and a weakened Muggle military to deal with later.

3- Forget Avada Kedavra: The Wizards come out of hiding in the second wave of attacks, starting Fiendfyre fires in all of the major cities of the Muggle world causing many millions of casualties and worldwide terror in the now crashing down Muggle world. The battles start now and Wizarding casualties are expected, but soon the Muggles, having very limited resources to keep fighting, would have to surrender.

There would be other options, but that is what I can think of for now- I agree that to do all of this the Wizards first would have to stop fighting between themselves (very unlikely!!), but really this is what would happen if they were well organized and attacked together in a great Magic vs Technology war.

Weird stuff, but it's fun to imagine it!! =)
 

Queshire

Auror
That requires the wizards having an understanding of muggle society. One of the minor themes of the Harry Potter series is that Magical society with their reliance on magic simply don't understand magic. Muggle studies is described as being a joke. Arthur Weasley is described as an "expert" on muggle tech and he's practically clueless. Wizards in the muggle world stick out like a sore thumb, either wearing their wizard robes or a mismatch of muggle clothing. They key would be each side finding out about the other, and the key in that would be the muggle born wizards, but their loyalties would be signifacantly divided along with each side distrusting the muggle borns.

In the Dresden Files, getting clueless mortals involved is like throwing a nuke, because, among other things, we have nukes. The systems involed are different, but similiar enough that the idea remains.

EDIT: Also, I'm pre~~~tty sure the Wizard's would screw themselves over by cursing crops. There's no confirmation one way or another that they can poof up food, and while they could grow their own food it'd still put a strain on their resources.

EDIT 2: A well prepared muggle can easily defeat a wizard, sniper round from a mile away, ether soaked rag to put them to sleep before they can cast a spell, infrared goggles, remote controlled drones, bombs, etc and so on.

EDIT 3: Also, while they may use magic to hide places like Hogwarts and Diagon Alley, they are physical places, a team of experts studying and specifically trying to find these wizard havens should be able to. Track people suspected of being a wizard, see where they disappear, or trying to find them by looking for the voids they leave on the records.
 
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Sheilawisz

Queen of Titania
Moderator
I agree Queshire, the Wizards in the HP series would need a better understanding of how the Muggle world works for a scenario like this to be feasible... I guess that if they wanted to destroy or enslave the Muggles they would first try to research as much as possible about how to deliver the first blow, but attacking the crops and the electricity systems would be a very clear and obvious idea to start with =)
 

Mindfire

Istar
From what can be seen in the chapter The Other Minister from the start of the 6th book of the series, it's clear that the top leaders of the Muggle world have certain knowledge about the Wizarding world... but this knowledge is limited to what they need to know, and they have no clue about the location of places like Hogwarts or the headquarters of the different Wizarding governments.

I have no doubt that some numbers of Wizards would get killed in the battles, but our world is far more fragile and vulnerable than most people like to accept: Casting in secret some kind of curses to magically ruin the crops worldwide would cause starvation, panic and violence very soon, and if they target the Muggle world's electrical system, then our society would come crashing down in a few months before they attack!!

This is the plan that I would design, if I were a dark Witch coordinating the war:

1- Send thousands of dark wizards with dissilusionment charms to curse the crops all over the world- This could take months, but when it is complete the Muggles will start losing all the harvests having no clue of what is happening. Soon, the food reserves would be depleted, prices would rise and there would be violence and panic: Muggle society starts to collapse.

2- While the Muggles are trying to find a way to deal with the lack of harvests, the first wave of the attack starts: Wizards apparate directly into Muggle power plants starting fires and explosions, while others attack the power lines. The Muggle world is thrown back to the 18th Century, and this means no factories working, no water in the cities, limited medical care in the hospitals and a weakened Muggle military to deal with later.

3- Forget Avada Kedavra: The Wizards come out of hiding in the second wave of attacks, starting Fiendfyre fires in all of the major cities of the Muggle world causing many millions of casualties and worldwide terror in the now crashing down Muggle world. The battles start now and Wizarding casualties are expected, but soon the Muggles, having very limited resources to keep fighting, would have to surrender.

There would be other options, but that is what I can think of for now- I agree that to do all of this the Wizards first would have to stop fighting between themselves (very unlikely!!), but really this is what would happen if they were well organized and attacked together in a great Magic vs Technology war.

Weird stuff, but it's fun to imagine it!! =)

Hold it! Wizards in the HP world have no clue how electricity works, much less the kind of knowledge to know how to attack strategic targets in order to bring down power grids worldwide. The wizards simply don't have the manpower to do ANYTHING you just named. Also, any loss of food supplies on the level you're suggesting would be immediately noticeable, and would qualify as a state of emergency. Bioterrorism would be the immediate suspect, and the end result would be that the nations of the world would be on higher alert for an attack, not weakened. This is a post 9/11 world after all. Plus, the wizards are operating at a logistical disadvantage. They have to coordinate troop movements via owls and divination. The muggles have internet, radio, and sattelite phones. And the wizards have absolutely no way of affecting the last one, even if they could figure out how it works. And on the open battlefield, wizards simply can't compete with fighter jets and tanks. Sorry. And if the wizards are so powerful, why do they bother hiding from the muggles in the first place? Because they know that if they didn't 95% of them would end up dead and the other 5% would be dissected at area 51. That's why.
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
Most wizards cannot cast Avada Kedavra, let alone Fiendfire. You have to assume the typical wizard, not make them all into dark lords.

Someone tell me the details of the spell Molly used to kill Belatrix, and then I'll tell you if the wizards are overpowered or not.
 

Sheilawisz

Queen of Titania
Moderator
Over a hundred thousand wizards and witches attended the World Cup in the 4th book, so it's likely that the Wizarding population in the entire HP planet is at least several million of them. It would take some half a million highly trained wizards to start the attack, I think the numbers are plausible and they would have enough manpower.

They live in hiding maybe because they prefer to live in their own world, I have no idea, the author herself would have to answer this particular question... well, if the attacks to destroy the crops and cripple the electric systems are not good, what about a magically enhanced disease created to cause a deadly pandemic??

They have Fiendfyre too, and tanks are no match for that... maybe I am a little too obssesed about Fiendfyre =)
 

Devor

Fiery Keeper of the Hat
Moderator
They have Fiendfyre too, and tanks are no match for that... maybe I am a little too obssesed about Fiendfyre =)

Fiendfyre v. Tanks? Sure. But tanks aren't the first line of defense, or assault, in any modern army. Mostly they're only used nowadays to reinforce the infantry. We've seen plenty of aerial combat in the books, and in my opinion it's abundantly clear that fighter jets would cripple most wizards in a straight fight.

The major advantage which the wizards hold is deception, apparition, and flexibility. Imperio and polyjuice are their big weapons, not fiendfyre.
 

Sheilawisz

Queen of Titania
Moderator
The Wizards could take control of the most powerful world leaders with the Imperius curse, make them start a huge world war maybe with nuclear weapons and then, when the Muggle world is devastated by the war, the Wizards attack!!
 

Mindfire

Istar
The Wizards could take control of the most powerful world leaders with the Imperius curse, make them start a huge world war maybe with nuclear weapons and then, when the Muggle world is devastated by the war, the Wizards attack!!

There's just one problem with that. Any "huge world war with nuclear weapons" would affect the wizards too. They don't live in an alternate dimension. They live on our earth, just hidden. Nuclear bombs do not discriminate between wizards and muggles. Any nuclear bombardment widespread enough to cause significant muggle casualties will cause equalliy significant wizard casualties.
 

Sheilawisz

Queen of Titania
Moderator
Then, the few surviving Wizards would enslave the few surviving Muggles in a radioactive, post-nuclear apocalypse dystopic world similar to that Panem thing of The Hunger Games! XD!!

This is fun... Well, what about the magically-enhanced Plague that causes a deadly pandemic in the Muggle world??
 

Mindfire

Istar
Then, the few surviving Wizards would enslave the few surviving Muggles in a radioactive, post-nuclear apocalypse dystopic world similar to that Panem thing of The Hunger Games! XD!!

This is fun... Well, what about the magically-enhanced Plague that causes a deadly pandemic in the Muggle world??

Plague? One word: quarantine. And I'm still waiting for your explanation of how the wizards prevent themselves from being killed by the radioactive fallout. And just saying "magic" is not a valid answer here, because in order to protect themselves from radiation with magic, they'd have to have a working knowledge of radiation, and they don't know what radiation IS, much less how it works.
 

Shockley

Maester
In addition, any muggles that survive the fallout/collapse of civilization would not be easy pickings, magic or magic. I mean, how long does Harry Potter really survive in Fallout?
 

Steerpike

Felis amatus
Moderator
Figure out the genetics behind what makes the magic-wielding people special, engineer a virus with gene sequences targeting the magic-related genes, provide for a deadly toxin to be coded by the viral DNA. Drop indiscriminately and kill all non-muggles.
 

Queshire

Auror
You know, most of the tatics you list for wizards are illegal by their own laws, listed as war crimes by just about every nation in the world, likely to result in massive civilian casualties, likely to backfire on the wizards just as easy, and are just plain evil. I mean, seriously, a magical disease?

Also, I suggest taking a look at the web orignal novel The Salvation War The Salvation War - Television Tropes & Idioms for a good look at just how a modern military would handle against the supernatural.

Further, muggles wouldn't be as limited for trying to prevent civilian casualties because any wizard with a wand, which is all of them, is a credible and immediate threat.

Oh, one more thing; take a look at the EXCELLENT fan fiction Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/FanFic/HarryPotterAndTheMethodsOfRationality to see what would happen if a scientist would find out about magic.
 
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Mindfire

Istar
You know, most of the tatics you list for wizards are illegal by their own laws, listed as war crimes by just about every nation in the world, likely to result in massive civilian casualties, likely to backfire on the wizards just as easy, and are just plain evil. I mean, seriously, a magical disease?

All VERY good points, Queshire. But I kinda figured that we were assuming that Voldemort was in charge now, thus the lack of good wizards on the side of humanity, which would otherwise be yet another reason why this invasion wouldn't work.
 

Queshire

Auror
Oh ho! A Voldy led wizarding world, now that's a very different scenario, but frankly it would strike me as making a Wizard victory even unlikelier.

I seriously doubt Voldemort would launch the required surgical first strike neccesary to cripple the Muggle world. While he was raised in a muggle oprphanage and as such would have knowledge of muggle tech, that knowledge would be severely out of date, both from the decades spent fully immersed into the wizarding culture as well as the decade spent dead. His MO has also always been shock and awe with a focus on overwhelming fire power, subtlety... well it's not his strong point. Further, this belief would be renforced by his victory over the Wizarding World using those same tatics.

A voldemort victory would also greatly increase the chances of Wizards joining the muggle side. With magic on their side they would neutralize Voldemort's advantage.

Honestly, with Voldemort, I would expect him to gather up his army, march to the nearest population center and manage to raze a city before the nations of the world team up and knock him down. He might be immortal, but that doesn't mean he can't be shot on a one way rocket into the sun!
 

Mindfire

Istar
Oh ho! A Voldy led wizarding world, now that's a very different scenario, but frankly it would strike me as making a Wizard victory even unlikelier.

I seriously doubt Voldemort would launch the required surgical first strike neccesary to cripple the Muggle world. While he was raised in a muggle oprphanage and as such would have knowledge of muggle tech, that knowledge would be severely out of date, both from the decades spent fully immersed into the wizarding culture as well as the decade spent dead. His MO has also always been shock and awe with a focus on overwhelming fire power, subtlety... well it's not his strong point. Further, this belief would be renforced by his victory over the Wizarding World using those same tatics.

A voldemort victory would also greatly increase the chances of Wizards joining the muggle side. With magic on their side they would neutralize Voldemort's advantage.

Honestly, with Voldemort, I would expect him to gather up his army, march to the nearest population center and manage to raze a city before the nations of the world team up and knock him down. He might be immortal, but that doesn't mean he can't be shot on a one way rocket into the sun!

All true. Plus, Voldemort would probably spend the early stages of his victory performing a Nazi-style massacre of all muggle-borns, half-bloods, squibs, and quite possibly half-breeds and non-humans, thus reducing the population of the wizarding world severely, and in turn severely reducing his own manpower to a small handful of extremely in-bred, slightly insane "elites." Which, needless to say, is going to make conquering the world even harder.
 
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