Sheilawisz's First Law

[Sheilawisz]

I would have liked to see the Narnians winning the battle by themselves, with the Telmarines already trying to escape when Aslan appears and starts all the Magic just like that to give the final blow... at least it would have been more fair. With the White Witch I had no problem really, because she had Magic too and it was alright, from my point of view, that Aslan would win in the end with his own Magic =)

The guns in the times that you mentioned were really no match for archers, because skilled archers can shoot a surprising number of arrows per minute and if you have them on horses, they are very deadly!! What would have happened to the same mounted archers if they had faced tanks, modern machine guns and cluster bombs??

You have a good point with your other views about the underdog scenario and other ways to make things more equal, that is great for stories too. We should remember now what Devor said about Magic not needing to be all-defeating in every Fantasy world, but in worlds with very powerful Magic, having the Mages fight other Mages is the best solution to avoid solving all the trouble too easily (DEMs) or at least, that's what works in my stories.

As an additional note: My Mages do not take over the worlds they live in because they don't care about taking over and ruling the common people =)

 

[Mindfire]

You have a good point with your other views about the underdog scenario and other ways to make things more equal, that is great for stories too. We should remember now what Devor said about Magic not needing to be all-defeating in every Fantasy world, but in worlds with very powerful Magic, having the Mages fight other Mages is the best solution to avoid solving all the trouble too easily (DEMs) or at least, that's what works in my stories.

As an additional note: My Mages do not take over the worlds they live in because they don't care about taking over and ruling the common people =)

I handle things somewhat differently. All the magic systems have a weakness that can be exploited. So skilled enemies without magic can find a way to use that to their advantage. And since the drawbacks make sense in context, it feels consistent.

Wait, so none of your mages has ever gotten full of himself and decided to go for world domination? Or at least takeover a small town so he can get free sandwiches at the local deli? Never? Where does their self-control come from?

 

[Saigonnus]

I think it's a sound concept, but many fantasy stories revolve around someone or a people without magic, trying to overcome obstacles or those in power that have it. The Crimson Shadow series by R.A. Salvatore is a prime example. He is the leader of a rebellion against the wizard king (who is really a dragon) and has no magic to fight it. He has a couple magic items (a cloak used by a notorious thief) and a sword, but nothing like the magical power of the king and his disciples.

I think those types of stories are inspiring to people because it represents that the ordinary people have the power to overcome even those with a vast power or resources.

 

[Sheilawisz]

@Saigonnus: I agree with you- Like I said in my first post when I started this thread, I do not intend my Sheilawisz's First Law to be valid for every Fantasy story... I do not believe in any "general law" for Fantasy stories, and my opinion about these matters is that every Fantasy world needs to have the laws and limitations that are best for the story that is being told =)

Maybe the stuff that I talk about seems strange for other Mythic Scribes members because, unlike so many stories about heroes without Magic that must struggle against superior forces, I write stories that are completely about powerful Mages and all the crazy things that they do in their own crazy worlds...

My Sheilawisz's Law works great in my own stories, but it lacks of logic in other worlds and this supports my opinion that every Fantasy world needs laws and limitations of its own =)

@Mindfire: That would be full of herself because all of my Mages are female!! They have their own cities, culture, society, entertainment, art and government with Mage Queens ruling over tens of thousands of them, so for my Mages the common people living in the same worlds are a separate world that is little more than a curiosity for them.

They sometimes get full of themselves and crazy things happen, and they do have some self-control issues: The great Candles War between two rival Mage cities was started because they could not agree which style of magical candles was best!!

About getting free sandwiches, they would just make those appear out of nowhere like they do with many things =)

 

[ThinkerX]

The premise of this law assumes that magic is understood well enough to have predictable effects each time it is used in the same way. With something as wondrous as magic, that might be a risky assumption.

Sheilawisz has mentioned several times that magic and magicians are essentially unbounded in that world(s). These magicians perform monumental feats of sorcery on a routine basis, and are apparently all but invulnerable. But suppose they woke up one day, and the magic was gone, or greatly altered to the point where many of their spells either would not work as expected, or would not work at all. Or suppose they woke up one day were all suddenly deathly alergic to some common spice or foodstuff?

Say there is a turkey living on a farm. Each day, the farmer shows up, feeds the turkey. The turkey comes to expect this, same time, each and every day. Then, come Thanksgiving, the farmer shows up not with food, but with an ax instead.

Imagine that, or something like it, being the case with a seemingly 'stable' magic system - that apparent stability is maintained only because it benefits some other ...entities... interest, and once certain conditions are meant...

There is also the issue as to just how powerful magicians actually are - is a solitary wizard, for example, capable of laying waste to a city on a whim without significant preparation? Or even a village? In my worlds, with my system, the answer is no:
unless he or she is very powerful, and does a lot of prep work, then that wizard won't be leveling any metropolises. Yes, some of them do possess potent combat spells, or magics of detection and protection that an army would find useful, but the nonmagical equivilents (catapults hurling crude gunpowder bombs, spies, ect) offset much of this.

Now...there are entities that can destroy a city or army more or less on a whim, but these are not 'mortals', but rather eldritch Lovecraftian things, Fey Lords and Ladies, and roughly comparable beings - and even then, certain conditions have to be meant, and they all have weird vulnerabilities.

So, my evaluation is this law needs to be rethought.

 

[Mindfire]

@Mindfire: That would be full of herself because all of my Mages are female!! They have their own cities, culture, society, entertainment, art and government with Mage Queens ruling over tens of thousands of them, so for my Mages the common people living in the same worlds are a separate world that is little more than a curiosity for them.

They sometimes get full of themselves and crazy things happen, and they do have some self-control issues: The great Candles War between two rival Mage cities was started because they could not agree which style of magical candles was best!!

About getting free sandwiches, they would just make those appear out of nowhere like they do with many things =)

But common folks are useful. For slaves! No but really, I'm having a hard time swallowing that in the entire history of this mage society there's never been any corruption or megalomania. How exactly does that happen? Do they not want slaves? Or have they developed to the point where they consider slavery/subjugation/colonization morally wrong?

 

[Sheilawisz]

@ThinkerX: They do not use Magic as some form of outside power that they have somehow mastered: They are Magic. Some friends here in MS have told me that I should not call them Mages, that they really are some form of mystical entities like demigoddeses or something like that, but I just like very much calling them Magas (castilian word for female mages) and I do not want to change that.

My Law is intended to work in Fantasy worlds with really powerful Magic, but it seems to me that a similar idea works well in the Harry Potter universe like it is explained in the first chapter of the 6th book.

"But you are Wizards! You can do Magic!! Surely you can sort out... anything!!"

@Mindfire: They have a good number of Guardians (males of their species) living in their cities with them as servants and something fun to look up at, but they do not need slaves... What would they want to do with slaves??

 

[Mindfire]

@Mindfire: They have a good number of Guardians (males of their species) living in their cities with them as servants and something fun to look up at, but they do not need slaves... What would they want to do with slaves??

Oh, so they do have men then. I was beginning to think they all just popped out of holes in the ground. Like Dwarves. And what do you mean look up at? If they're servants, wouldn't they be considered subhuman and/or looked down on? Or are they giants?

Incidently I have a cult society in my WIP that sounds similar to your Magas, except they're less magical and more brutal. And practice ritual kidnapping and human sacrifice.

 

[ThinkerX]

ThinkerX: They do not use Magic as some form of outside power that they have somehow mastered: They are Magic. Some friends here in MS have told me that I should not call them Mages, that they really are some form of mystical entities like demigoddeses or something like that, but I just like very much calling them Magas (castilian word for female mages) and I do not want to change that

With respect, the problem still exists even so. Power, for quite a number of reasons can fluxuate. They could, as merely one example, expend so much power in such away that they are greatly weakened, maybe even permanently. Likewise, using an electrical anaolgy - there are quite a few substances that have a high resistance. And even gods have weak points - Baldur, for example, was done in by missiletoe.

I would also submit, that as 'beings who are magic', they would have crippling, all encompassing blind spots about some of these potential pitfalls - because, up until whatever it is happens, things have always been the same.

 

[Sheilawisz]

To make things more clear about my Law, tonight I wanted to include in it this little additional part: Sheilawisz's First Law works best in Fantasy worlds where there is super powerful Magic: The kind of Magic against which non-magic stands no chance in hell.

Anyway, like I said in the Sanderson's Law thread: The beauty of Magic is that we can imagine and use it in our worlds in so many different ways... That's why I don't believe in the idea of having general laws in what we do, because each story is different and so it's better to come up with our own systems of laws and limitations.

Also, there are stories with very low and even without Magic, and that is Fantasy too...

@ThinkerX: They do get tired and weakened, especially when they have been harmed in battle. I have not given them particular weaknesses like orange juice will kill them, but they are very vulnerable to the same weapons that they use and that's quite enough a weakness in the stories =)

@Mindfire: You guessed it right!! The Guardians are over 12 feet tall while females are between 5'8'' and 6'4'', so they do have to look very high up. In my species the Guardians are very protective and loyal to the females, not just to those who are Mages.

 

[Ankari]

So rewrite it to include all forms of fantasy:

Magic is a tool. Like any tool everyone has access, and the ability, to learn and master it. It should never be the deciding factor in any conflict, only a weapon by which anyone can wield.

Doesn't that cover it?

 

[Sheilawisz]

I don't believe that any First Law can cover all forms of Magic and Fantasy... I started this thread just to have fun creating my own Fantasy Law and reading what other Mythic Scribes members would think of it =)

Maybe the closest thing to a general law would be what J.K. Rowling said, though I do not remember where: The most important part of creating a Fantasy world, is to know what your characters cannot do.

By the way, I love your avatar Ankari!!

 

[Ankari]

By the way, I love your avatar Ankari!!

Thanks, I cropped it from my website's logo.

 

[Sheilawisz]

An interesting idea to think about: If the Wizards and Witches from the Harry Potter series were real, and wanted to take over the world and enslave us Muggles all to work as House Elves... Would we stand a chance to stop them with our Technology? Would we stand a chance against their Magic, without Magic of our own to fight back??

 

[Steerpike]

Yes. A very good chance, I think

 

[Sheilawisz]

Thanks Steerpike, but how would we fight them??

We are talking about people that can just come out of nowhere and turn you into a ferret, take control of your mind, cause unspeakable torture and so many other things...

I bet that all the major cities of the world would get Fiendfyred before we can do something, or they would do something to our crops worldwide and the food supplies would soon run out and we would have to surrender =P

 

[Steerpike]

There are far more muggles than not. I suspect over the ages, if the magic-wielding people thought they could take over the world, why not do so? Instead, they remain hidden. And for good reason.

I didn't see anything in the books that would prevent people from being killed by being shot. A large force against a small number of magicians and it would be no contest. You couldn't turn everyone into a ferret in time. I also doubt Hogwarts and other institutions would stand up too well to being bombed back into the stone age from the air or via missiles.

No, their only chance would be to launch the first assault, and even then I don't think there are enough magic-wielders in the Harry Potter world to do it. And if they didn't take over in the initial assault, I think they'd be in trouble. Technology doesn't really fit into Rowling's world, and so she largely ignored it. But if Voldemort had managed to rise to power in the Muggle world and assaulted Hogwarts with a modern military force, including ground, air, etc., I think there would be a smoking crater where Hogwarts used to be

 

[Sheilawisz]

Hogwarts and other similar places are supposed to be impossible to see or to find by Muggles, so maybe they would not appear even in radar or something for bomber jets to go and nuke them... Wizards could be killed by bullets or other weapons, but what if they teleport to escape a force of Muggle soldiers and then attack from behind??

They have shield charms, and can be invisible too- What about Fiendfyre? What if they attacked cities by flying above and transforming the air into some form of devastating chemical weapon??

Taking control of the greatest world leaders to start a nuclear war would be feasible too...

It's true that they would need a good strategy to launch the first attack (targeting the crops and food supplies, to start with) but in the end, I think we would be screwed.

 

[Mindfire]

Hogwarts and other similar places are supposed to be impossible to see or to find by Muggles, so maybe they would not appear even in radar or something for bomber jets to go and nuke them... Wizards could be killed by bullets or other weapons, but what if they teleport to escape a force of Muggle soldiers and then attack from behind??

They have shield charms, and can be invisible too- What about Fiendfyre? What if they attacked cities by flying above and transforming the air into some form of devastating chemical weapon??

Taking control of the greatest world leaders to start a nuclear war would be feasible too...

It's true that they would need a good strategy to launch the first attack (targeting the crops and food supplies, to start with) but in the end, I think we would be screwed.

I disagree. According to my research, top government officials like the UK Prime Minister and (if there are wizards and such in America) the US President are aware of the existence of the wizarding world and are knowledgeable of key locations, like Hogwarts. I think that takes the element of surprise advantage off the table for a wizard invasion. The governments of the world would have to be EXTREMELY stupid to know about these people existing and NOT have a contingency plan. Steerpike was right about numbers also being a factor. In order to have a conclusive victory, the wizards would have to:
A. Stop bickering among themselves, and that alone is a longshot.
B. Have enough manpower to simultaneously attack every UN/NATO country in the world. Because if they don't they'll have MOABs, nuclear bombs and patriot missiles crammed so far up their collective broomsticks before they can even say "Avada Kedavra".

Magic>weapons of mass destruction.

 

[Amanita]

Commenting on the struggle between Harry Potter wizards and non-magical people first: I agree with the position that wizards would eventually lose because of their small number. Besides that wizards do not have any weapons superior to the „muggle“ ones. A machine gun should kill people more quickly than shouting „Avada Kedavra“, and nuclear weapons are way more devastating than Fiendfire. As mentioned on another thread quite a while ago, I highly doubt that Harry Potter wizards would even think of something like turning the air into a poisonous gas because they don’t seem to be aware of such concepts at all.
Besides that the fact that magical and non magical people live in the same places could cause problems do.

But now on the subject matter of the thread in a more general way.
I don’t think that both sides in battles need to have the same magical powers but I agree with the assumption that a certain amount of balance is necessary to make the story interesting. A „hero“ who keeps roasting thousands of Orcs every day before breakfast doesn’t make for an intriguing story, at least not if we’re supposed to take it seriously.
I have one nation who uses more magic in war but their opponents have more advanced weapons technology, that’s why I think they’re quite evenly matched.
One thing certainly applies though: If a magic user is able to form perfect shields against swords, arrows and everything else his enemies are using against him, seeing him in battle isn’t interesting. Such characters actually do require opponents who can counter this and harm them despite of it.
Moving away from battle the same applies to other issues such as injury and disease. If someone can heal gut wounds with a swish of his wand, there need to be magical wounds to add a sense of danger.