Shift from Idealism to Cynicism?

[Penpilot]

This is part of the issue. Characters can be complex and have a clear good/evil alignment. They are not mutually exclusive options. Yet many people seem to consider works with a clear good/evil dichotomy to be "simplistic" or "childish."

I think blank and white stories are simpler. When you only have two sides to things instead of the infinite shades of gray, it's by definition simpler. And you said it your self, characters can be complex and be clearly good or evil, and to me that's what will determine if a story is childish or not. The more believably complex the character's motivations are then, generally speaking, the less childish the story will come off. If the villian is "I will destroy the world because it's just the way I roll" and the hero saves the world for the same reason well that's obviously childish. If maybe a villain slaughters thousands in an effort to revive his dead wife and the hero want's to stop him, even though the wife is his sister, but he has his own family to worry about and will do anything to save them, that's a little less childish... not necessarily good motivations ... but less childish.

 

[Mindfire]

I'm a White and Grey sort of guy myself: all people are good, but some need help bringing that goodness out.
... Yes, the real world is a dark and complex place and you can't be sure of anything, but the moment we accept that as the best we can hope for, and stop aspiring to better, nobler or higher things will be, I feel, a very sad day for fantastic literature.

Well said, Scipio!

Me personally, I believe that all people start out grey, with a lean towards black. But as we go through life, we make choices to either align closer to white or black. Nobody's pure white. Very few are pure black. But we all lean to one side or the other.

 

[Ophiucha]

I can go any which way with it, to be honest. Good vs. Evil has its place, though admittedly, it's place isn't in my writing. I'll read it if the villain is enjoyably evil. Grey and White and White and White is oft overlooked, but also interesting. You can have two objectively good people on opposite sides of an issue, if your view of morality is loose enough to allow to see positives in two opposing ideas. Grey and Grey is, well, bleak. I get grey and grey, but I find it the most bland. If you want a middle ground of sorts, I'd rather grey vs. rainbow. Strange moralities we can't really place on a monochromatic scale. Grey vs. black is good, and I think the most cynical of them all - which isn't a bad thing. It paints the world as dark and evil. Even the good guys have a bad side, it's just not as bad. Black and black probably turns a lot of people off, since there's no "right" side to root for, but hell, it's really fun. Particularly in comic books.

 

[Lady Novelist]

How about realism? Why not have white, light-grey, dark-grey, black and every shade in-between morality?

 

[Deleted member 4265]

I think there's a difference between grey characters and grey stories. Grey characters are characters that don't always make the right choices, the do bad things, they're anti-hero's. However they can still exist in idealistic stories. Characters can do horrible things in an "the end justifies the means" sort of way and whether or not the reader agrees with this, there is a clear end we are shooting for. Just because the main character's a scumbag who's willing to do unspeakable things for his cause doesn't mean his cause isn't just. Sauron, Voldemort, ect., the traditional villains would all still be bad. Middle Earth would still be worth saving even if Frodo lacked integrity.

Grey stories on the other hand are stories are stories where there isn't a clear cut good and evil and the only reason one person's the antagonist and the other's the protagonist is because the author write it that way. These could be stories that pit morally right or 'idealistic' characters against each other or more commonly equally bad characters against each other. Here there is no clear cut winner or loser it all depends on perspective and this can be both an uplifting and very scary thing.
They don't necessarily have to be overloaded with darkness but they do have to depict a world that doesn't have an inherent right and wrong just what a particular character feels is right and wrong. But really I'm a girl who cares about character more than anything.

Anyways it's 2:00 am and I'm rambling now so I'll end this by saying, I personally don't care. I'll read whatever so long as it has good, complex characters. Though admittedly I do lean towards grey fantasy. The problem with idealism is it only works when you agree with the ideals.

 

[Demesnedenoir]

The best type of white, gray, or black, is when its debatable. Maybe that's what makes politics interesting, heh heh.

Is Charles Bronson in Death Wish, White, Gray, or Black? This depends on your world view. For me, Death Wish Bronson is White. he's fed up, he's going to kill the bad guy. I'm down with that. Others would see a vigilante as gray, others black. Aside from kicking bad guy rumps, that's what makes his character cool.

Tolkien is a black/white world, which tends to draw lines, but the characters aren't simply white/black. But they certainly lean that way. One of the strengths of the black/white world is the character of Boromir. In a gray world he is just another bloke who succumbs to evil and gets the shaft.... shafts.

 

[WooHooMan]

I don't think idealism and cynicism are the best terms for this.

If we're talking about morality, there are four general viewpoints: absolutism, universalism, relativism and nihilism.
And then there's virtue ethics vs. deonotolgy vs. consequentialism.

I feel like boiling morality down to a color-coded simplistic-or-ambiguous dichotomy dumbs-down the concept of morality.

I generally shoot for grey and white so, which of the two options do I pick?

Also, I would like to point-out that Tolkien's world is, by definition, fatalistic. Fate is almost unquestionably a thing that exists.
ASOIAF, on the other hand, doesn't have predetermined fate (if I recall correctly).
Fatalism can be idealistic or cynical depending on how you look at it.

 

[NerdyCavegirl]

Realism isn't an option, dubious as such terms are? I'll read anything but Twilight (and do read less YA and romance in general than other genres, though I enjoy a few), but all my writing has a similar flavor: gritty, twisted, darkly humorous, and as "realistic" as dragons, magic, and spirits can be, but also a testament to the beauty of nature and the power of family bound through and beyond blood. Illness, injury, starvation, and exposure aren't just brushed off as minor nuisances on the road to the Big Bad or magic treasure, they're real challenges with consequences that build character and require real solutions. People aren't inherently good or bad, but everyone's motives and behavior differs, which causes conflict. Good and bad are matters of opinion. Some people still worship Hitler, some people think Gandhi was a perverted creep. I enjoy pushing the boundaries of what others find acceptable.

 

[NerdyCavegirl]

On the other hand, the pain we experience is for a purpose, to teach us, strengthen us, and allow us to truly appreciate the littlest pleasures in life. There can be both joy and anguish in many things: the wonders of nature, the bonds between people, and the timeless treasure of food, sex, games, music, good conversation, and psychoactive plants around the fire. It all depends on the energy you project into life; the power of the mind over matter is a great thing, and you reap what you sow. If there's any duality in my writing, it's that, not good vs evil, but positivity, love, confidence, and thankfulness vs negativity, hate, self-pity, and selfishness.

 

[Russ]

I lean towards black and white in the themes of my writing, with the plot driven by grey facts that make it hard to apply black and white logic to them. I feel that is the sweet spot for really strong fiction.

It is informed by my world view. I do believe that there are black and white moral lines and ideas, that there are such things as right and wrong, that there is a spiritual universal moral compass for humans and that we should try to follow that arrow as best we can.

However complicated facts or challenges can make it very difficult to apply those rules in fiction, just as it is in real life. That is what creates tension and questions in fiction that allow fiction to rise above simple entertainment. As an aside for simple entertainment I think either approach can work but for fiction that comments on the human condition, the black/white mindset living in the "grey" environment makes for the best fiction.

I also feel that many authors, and people, don't take the time to really engage with this struggle when they can and miss out on an opportunity to take their fiction up a notch.

 

[Mindfire]

Okay, who brought this thread back from the dead? It ended in 2012!