So that's how they publish so quickly

[psychotick]

Hi,

It's not a new practice though. I mean it's been well known for years that Barbara Cartland had a team of ghostwriters, and that she basically dictated her books and left them to finish up. And Michael Moorcock, back in the days when he was writing a book every few days, had a similar set up.

Cheers, Greg.

 

[BWFoster78]

A, perhaps, new perspective on this:

This morning, I'm driving into work and thinking about an upcoming blog post. An example that I came up with to explain a concept takes on a life of its own. Before long, I'm knee deep in characters for a story I'm probably never going to write. I have way more ideas for books than I will ever have time to produce.

I couldn't help but think, "I'd love to be able to pay someone to write this for me. If nothing else, I'd kind of like to see how the story ends."

I guess my thought is: If I come up with the plot details and the character arcs, isn't the story mine regardless of who actually puts the words on paper?

 

[Chilari]

Brian, yes, the story is yours. But not exclusively if someone else tells it. What I dislike is the idea that readers are told that the story is yours and not told that someone else was involved in getting it from your head to a completed manuscript. Because as we've been telling everyone who comes here worried about their story being cliche, each writer has a different way of telling a story that makes it unique. You might have a detailed plan with a whole page of description for each scene, but if you pay someone else to get it from that stage to a final draft, you're not the sole author. I would expect your name to sit alongside that of the person who actually did the writing in such a situation.

Thing is, not everyone has the same strengths. Some people are great at big picture but lack the ability to look more closely. Others have talent with the actual writing but struggle with plots. Put those two together and you get a collaboration work. It's easier to see in webcomics where you might get one person creating the whole thing or you might have a writer and an artist working together. Both are credited; no ethical creator would dream of going up to an artist and saying "draw my webcomic for £XXX, but your name won't be anywhere on it". And with some co-written novels, again, both are credited. But in the case as described in the article, this isn't always the case. And I don't understand why that is, why some co-authors are both credited while others are not, simply because one of the co-authors has an established fanbase and the other does not.

Psychotick: I wasn't aware of that. I've not heard of Barbara Cartland but either way, I was not aware this was common practice until I saw the article on the BBC.

I'm not objecting here to the act of an author setting out the plot, sending it to someone else, that person writing it and sending it back for the first author to edit. I don't see that as a problem at all, if that's how an author wants to increase their output and visibility. I am objecting to the practice of leaving the actual writer (as opposed to the plotter/editor) out of the picture when it comes to giving credit. It's unfair on the writer and it's unfair on a reader who has paid to read what an author has written and actually reads what they have plotted and edited but which someone else has written.

 

[BWFoster78]

Chilari,

I really do get what you're saying. However, if I:

come up with a plot and character arcs
outline the book
hire someone to put words to paper to bring MY vision to life
extensively edit what they produced

I wouldn't really term that a collaboration; it's someone working under my supervision.

I'm a professional engineer. If an EIT working under my direction does work on a design, I still sign the document. It's my professional reputation on the line for the work, not his. You could look at this the same way.

I gain a method of increasing the amount of work I can turn out. The apprentice gains experience. It's a win/win.

 

[Chilari]

Brian,

In my professional experience (my job largely involves writing CVs for engineers and reviewing documents written by engineers in order to demonstrate to a client why we're the best company to build their building), engineers cannot competently write English. You can. Therefore you cannot be an engineer. Therefore your argument is invalidated by the obvious lie that you claim to be an engineer.

Now that's out of the way, okay, fair point, I see what you mean about it not being a true collaboration in the situation you have described, and I can see the parallels relating to your (apparent) professional experience (still not convinved you're an engineer; capitalise a random noun in the middle of a sentence for no reason and use the wrong form of their/there/they're and I will). But put like that I can't really argue.

 

[BWFoster78]

Therefore your argument is invalidated by the obvious lie that you claim to be an engineer.

If it helps:

1) I no longer actually work as an engineer. I do construction management as an owner's rep.
2) I won't be an engineer much longer if I don't do my 30 hours of professional development credits by March.

But put like that I can't really argue.

It would still be nice to see the ghost writer get some credit for the work, though.

 

[Sheilawisz]

Thanks for sharing a link to that article, Chilari... I loved reading that.

I feel now much prouder of writing my own novels, even if it takes me so long to finish one!! I am proud of who I am, what I do and how I do it, and whenever that I feel bad about being a rather slow writer, I'll remember that sometimes the famous authors do not do all the hard work by themselves.

The books written that way should give credit to the ghost writers, really... I wish that J.K. Rowling really wrote all the Harry Potter books herself, and I think that she did.

 

[Kevin O. McLaughlin]

I knew this sort of thing went on. I don't know that we ought to assume ALL writers who produce good quantities of work do this sort of thing, however. Kevin Anderson kicks out 5-6 novels a year, and I don't believe he has anyone ghost writing. He just works a 40 hour+ work week at his craft. John Scalzi has mentioned on his blog "Whatever" how long some of his books took him to write - generally, one to three months, working on it every morning until around lunch time, from starting the work to sending it to a publisher.

The primary difference between a writer producing one book per year and a writer producing five books per year is just how many hours the person spends per year working.

 

[Steerpike]

I knew this sort of thing went on. I don't know that we ought to assume ALL writers who produce good quantities of work do this sort of thing, however.

I agree. Erikson also puts out a ton of work, and he writes it himself. I think there are a few big brand-name authors doing this, but I don't think it represents the way the vast majority of writers work.

 

[BWFoster78]

The primary difference between a writer producing one book per year and a writer producing five books per year is just how many hours the person spends per year working.

I think the length of the books is an important consideration. If I can write one 150000 word book, I can probably write two 70k word books.

Rate of writing is also important. If I can do roughly 1k/hr, I'll produce half the amount of you if you can do 2k/hr, and I think the overall average wpm rate is probably highly variable on a per person basis.

 

[Mindfire]

Brian,

In my professional experience (my job largely involves writing CVs for engineers and reviewing documents written by engineers in order to demonstrate to a client why we're the best company to build their building), engineers cannot competently write English.

I'm offended. I consider myself quite a proficient writer (and so do my professors), and I am an engineering student. Of course, the fact that I am presently only a student may account for this. But regardless, engineers who write may be a rarity, but we do exist. Please don't discriminate against us. Or we'll attack you with drone fighters cobbled together from radio shack parts.

 

[Steerpike]

I'm offended. I consider myself quite a proficient writer (and so do my professors), and I am an engineering student. Of course, the fact that I am presently only a student may account for this. But regardless, engineers who write may be a rarity, but we do exist. Please don't discriminate against us. Or we'll attack you with drone fighters cobbled together from radio shack parts.

It's a rarity, all right. In my experience, both engineers and patent attorneys (many of whom have engineering degrees) tend to be less skilled at writing than one might hope. There are exceptions, of course

 

[Mindfire]

It's a rarity, all right. In my experience, both engineers and patent attorneys (many of whom have engineering degrees) tend to be less skilled at writing than one might hope. There are exceptions, of course

In my case, I'm more naturally talented at language arts than at mathematics, but I've always preferred science over Shakespeare.

 

[Chilari]

I'm offended. I consider myself quite a proficient writer (and so do my professors), and I am an engineering student. Of course, the fact that I am presently only a student may account for this. But regardless, engineers who write may be a rarity, but we do exist. Please don't discriminate against us. Or we'll attack you with drone fighters cobbled together from radio shack parts.

I am referring to civil and structural engineers. I have no experience of other types of engineers. And what can civil or structural engineers do to me, huh? Demolish the house I live in? Ha! I'd pay to see that, I hate this place, joke is on them.

As long as I can remove my PC first.

 

[Mindfire]

I am referring to civil and structural engineers. I have no experience of other types of engineers. And what can civil or structural engineers do to me, huh? Demolish the house I live in? Ha! I'd pay to see that, I hate this place, joke is on them.

As long as I can remove my PC first.

Oh, ok. I'm in aerospace. From what I can see, we tend to be quirkier than most other engineers.

 

[Kevin O. McLaughlin]

Oh, ok. I'm in aerospace. From what I can see, we tend to be quirkier than most other engineers.

No! Aerospace engineers, quirky? Say it ain't so!

 

[Kevin O. McLaughlin]

I think the length of the books is an important consideration. If I can write one 150000 word book, I can probably write two 70k word books.

Rate of writing is also important. If I can do roughly 1k/hr, I'll produce half the amount of you if you can do 2k/hr, and I think the overall average wpm rate is probably highly variable on a per person basis.

My own feeling is length adds to complexity of a work, as well. So you might find yourself able to complete four 50k word novels in the same time frame as one 150k word novel, for example.

 

[BWFoster78]

My own feeling is length adds to complexity of a work, as well. So you might find yourself able to complete four 50k word novels in the same time frame as one 150k word novel, for example.

Quite possibly.

I also feel like I'm getting quicker as I move up the learning curve.

 

[psychotick]

Hi,

Here's a small snippet about Barbara Cartland which mentions her writing method, and where it was inspired from. And at over seven hundred books, I'd have to say it works.

Barbara Cartland | The Economist

Then, when I realised how many books she'd written I googled most prolific authors and came up with this. Imagine my surprise when I found out that even Dame Cartland had been outdone.

List of prolific writers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Cheers, Greg.

 

[Inglorious_Hero]

I can't stomach stories written by such writers. Their material is too generic that they could do this. I myself, will strive to write my own story until the day that I die.

On a side note, I'm attending school to be an Electrical Engineer and I have faith in my writing and my stories. But after reading many of the reports from fellow students, I can attest that this does apply to many of us.